Cornell is the best place for elite wrestlers?

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

Not Penn State, not Iowa, not Ohio State, not Mizzou, not Oklahoma State, not Minnesota...not anywhere in the Big 10 or Big 12 or ACC.

Is Cornell the best place for elite wrestlers (and elite students) to go?

Dake and Yianni are 4 timers.  Vito looks like he may win 2 titles before he is done.

And keep in mind as a Ivy League school Cornell has no red shirts and no athletic scholarships available.  So the only thing they can offer is an premium Ivy League education and great wrestling coaches.

[scourge165]

[D3 for LU]

To Pastry Man...

From the Intermat Forum Posters.

D3

[LJB]

[scribers]

This is obvious...... YES

[D3 for LU]

A big fat yes from scribers... that's a yes.

(oh, dammit... I just fed & added into Pastry Man's silliness. A pox on me!)

D3

Edited March 19, 2023 by D3 for LU

[paboom]

The Big 10 did not fare well in the finals and higher consolations this year.

Only 3 champs.

I counted 33 AA's which is way ahead of any other conference but when you consider these other conferences has a lot of schools not in traditional wrestling states, it may be an indication that the Big 10 may slowly be losing their dominance.  Aside from 4 top programs, the rest of the Big 10 is mediocre based on team scores.

If the ACC could rake in the same donations (for their RTC's) and have the same NIL money, they could really contend.

[scourge165]

3 hours ago, paboom said:

The Big 10 did not fare well in the finals and higher consolations this year.

Only 3 champs.

I counted 33 AA's which is way ahead of any other conference but when you consider these other conferences has a lot of schools not in traditional wrestling states, it may be an indication that the Big 10 may slowly be losing their dominance.  Aside from 4 top programs, the rest of the Big 10 is mediocre based on team scores.

If the ACC could rake in the same donations (for their RTC's) and have the same NIL money, they could really contend.

Yeah, ACC looks really good. Va Tech is loaded and bringing pretty much everyone back.

I don't think the B1G is losing any ground. Iowa-coming off their best recruiting class EVER.
Ohio State-arguably coming off THEIR best recruiting class ever a year before that(the one with Phillips/Stieber/Tessari...and whoever else was incredible).

PSU is gonna be even better despite RBY IMO. 

If only this weren't in a thread started by someone who's got this fetish about trolling his own team...

[D3UC157]

Again, Taylor, but Dake keeps it close.

[Sublime607]

It's possible now that someone with enough power and money could indirectly buy a championship team with promises of likeness. It wouldn't be profitable but could be done for no other reason than ego. It's going to happen at some point in a college sport.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Sublime607

[dragit]

Interesting topic.  I think the answer is 1. Penn State; 2. Cornell.  Then a gap, possibly Missouri third.  

I'm skeptical about the premise that the only thing Cornell has to offer financially is a scholarship.  Ivy League schools can offer massive financial aid and wrestling is obviously very important to the school, so I wouldn't be surprised if lots of their top wrestlers end up paying comparable amounts out of pocket (none or not much) as they would at Michigan, Northwestern, or Stanford.

[Red Blades]

56 minutes ago, dragit said:

Interesting topic.  I think the answer is 1. Penn State; 2. Cornell.  Then a gap, possibly Missouri third.

It may be that the answer also depends upon which weight class is being discussed; I can see an argument that Cornell has recently done very well developing lightweights, maybe better than Penn State.  But it's hard to argue with PSU's success at the upper weights.

[dragit]

1 hour ago, Red Blades said:

It may be that the answer also depends upon which weight class is being discussed; I can see an argument that Cornell has recently done very well developing lightweights, maybe better than Penn State.  But it's hard to argue with PSU's success at the upper weights.

Good argument but I gotta still say Penn State.  The only thing their lightweights don't compare well to is their heavy weights.  With all the kidding around about their issues at 125, Megaludis was 2-2-3-1.  RBY did great, and furthermore he developed quite a bit at PSU. Same thing with Nick Lee, like RBY he had two titles with substantial growth (HAT TIP TO WKN). And I'd say Zain is pretty comparable to Yianni.  He won three championships and two Hodges and beat Stieber the year he didn't win NCAAs.  He totally dominated his three wins, Yianni needed a cringeworthy call to win his second.  And they've been about equal internationally.  Nolf is technically a lightweight.  I'd say that if not better than Cornell at the light weights, they're awfully close, and then their upper weight dominance is otherworldly.

Edited March 20, 2023 by dragit
schooled by wrestleknownothing who knows everything

[Wrestleknownothing]

2 minutes ago, dragit said:

Good argument but I gotta still say Penn State.  The only thing their lightweights don't compare well to is their heavy weights.  With all the kidding around about their issues at 125, Megaludis was 2-2-3-1.  RBY did great, and furthermore he developed quite a bit at PSU.  And I'd say Zain is pretty comparable to Yianni.  He won three championships and two Hodges and beat Stieber the year he didn't win NCAAs.  He totally dominated his three wins, Yianni needed a cringeworthy call to win his second.  And they've been about equal internationally.  Nolf is technically a lightweight.  I'd say that if not better than Cornell at the light weights, they're awfully close, and then their upper weight dominance is otherworldly.

And you skipped over Nick Lee.

[Matthew Burns]

10 hours ago, paboom said:

The Big 10 did not fare well in the finals and higher consolations this year.

Only 3 champs.

I counted 33 AA's which is way ahead of any other conference but when you consider these other conferences has a lot of schools not in traditional wrestling states, it may be an indication that the Big 10 may slowly be losing their dominance.  Aside from 4 top programs, the rest of the Big 10 is mediocre based on team scores.

If the ACC could rake in the same donations (for their RTC's) and have the same NIL money, they could really contend.

There's a"yeah but" there.

10 of 20 finalists were Big 10 wrestlers.

I don't think it's a shaky assumption that team scores from other conferences are mediocre without their top 4 schools.

I would love to see the ACC push the Big 10. Heck I'd love it if the PAC 12 actually had more than 4 member schools with programs.

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, dragit said:

Good argument but I gotta still say Penn State.  The only thing their lightweights don't compare well to is their heavy weights.  With all the kidding around about their issues at 125, Megaludis was 2-2-3-1.  RBY did great, and furthermore he developed quite a bit at PSU. Same thing with Nick Lee, like RBY he had two titles with substantial growth (HAT TIP TO WKN). And I'd say Zain is pretty comparable to Yianni.  He won three championships and two Hodges and beat Stieber the year he didn't win NCAAs.  He totally dominated his three wins, Yianni needed a cringeworthy call to win his second.  And they've been about equal internationally.  Nolf is technically a lightweight.  I'd say that if not better than Cornell at the light weights, they're awfully close, and then their upper weight dominance is otherworldly.

You think that 2 vs Mckenna was that bad?

It was debatable to me, but he gets the leg in, McKenna has to start to fight to get the leg out and come back up. Yianni is obviously not in great position, so he bails...but I certainly see the argument that it was a TD.

They also tweak what positions are "TDs" each year. One that's often cited is Oliver-Stieber, but again, that year the refs made it clear at the coaches meeting, that EXACT situation Oliver ended up in was not a TD. Needed to get the head out...yet that's still cited as an example of a wrestler who shouldn't have won. 

So I don't remember, but I thought if you got the leg in, that was a TD?

Or are you not arguing with the call, just that it shouldn't have been called one?

(Not arguing, just asking your opinion).

[dragit]

9 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

You think that 2 vs Mckenna was that bad?

It was debatable to me, but he gets the leg in, McKenna has to start to fight to get the leg out and come back up. Yianni is obviously not in great position, so he bails...but I certainly see the argument that it was a TD.

They also tweak what positions are "TDs" each year. One that's often cited is Oliver-Stieber, but again, that year the refs made it clear at the coaches meeting, that EXACT situation Oliver ended up in was not a TD. Needed to get the head out...yet that's still cited as an example of a wrestler who shouldn't have won. 

So I don't remember, but I thought if you got the leg in, that was a TD?

Or are you not arguing with the call, just that it shouldn't have been called one?

(Not arguing, just asking your opinion).

Just watched it again, which I should have done before posting, and will post now without reviewing the rule, which I should also do but have got to get some work done that I should have done the whole time that I was watching and posting about wrestling.

I still don't feel good about the call.  Yianni's right foot is in McKenna's groin, but Yianni's hips are up at McKenna's shoulder blades, and McKenna is holding him up there with an underhook.  I'm not sure I've ever seen a takedown called where someone is behind the other wrestler but is that high and is being kept from having control of the legs or hips by an underhook.  You mentioned the Stieber-Oliver match, which is a good comparison since Stieber's takedown in the second period was a beautiful one where he hooked the leg - check that one out, he has the leg all the way in and is behind the hips, as compared to a foot being in and his weight up at the shoulders.

"Cringeworthy call" not a good choice of words, though; "friendly call" would be better.  I do still disagree with it.

And, p.s., watching it again, I have the same reaction as always.  The year before, championship match, same situation, Meredith had a lead and attacked Yianni's legs in the last 30 seconds and lost the title in his grasp.  Joey (or Tom and J) - watch some tape!

[scourge165]

40 minutes ago, dragit said:

Just watched it again, which I should have done before posting, and will post now without reviewing the rule, which I should also do but have got to get some work done that I should have done the whole time that I was watching and posting about wrestling.

I still don't feel good about the call.  Yianni's right foot is in McKenna's groin, but Yianni's hips are up at McKenna's shoulder blades, and McKenna is holding him up there with an underhook.  I'm not sure I've ever seen a takedown called where someone is behind the other wrestler but is that high and is being kept from having control of the legs or hips by an underhook.  You mentioned the Stieber-Oliver match, which is a good comparison since Stieber's takedown in the second period was a beautiful one where he hooked the leg - check that one out, he has the leg all the way in and is behind the hips, as compared to a foot being in and his weight up at the shoulders.

"Cringeworthy call" not a good choice of words, though; "friendly call" would be better.  I do still disagree with it.

And, p.s., watching it again, I have the same reaction as always.  The year before, championship match, same situation, Meredith had a lead and attacked Yianni's legs in the last 30 seconds and lost the title in his grasp.  Joey (or Tom and J) - watch some tape!

Yeah, I remember the one you're talking about with Stieber. He ends up in a full crab ride to end the period IIRC. That was clearly a TD. A much more definitive TD. 

Yianni's was different. Got the leg in-which, I think did constitute a TD, but it's not a hill I'd die on. It's a 51/49 call and honestly, with the rules changing, again, not positive, but I thought getting that leg was 2, get behind the arm and it's 2. . But it was definitely a questionable one.

With Stieber v Oliver, I was just referencing the last TD...or non-TD in 2012 that would have given Oliver the W as time ran out.

 

I will say, BOTH of these matches are why I don't just automatically consider 4X Champs superior to 3X Champs. Close wins that another ref could well have called differently and you now have 2 3X Champs rather than 4. 2 EXTREMELY class calls in the finals. Not to diminish the end result, but are they better than Mcllravy for example(the one guy who's constantly being overlooked IMO). 

Don't know for sure, but give me Lincoln over Stieber at 142/141. Not to bring this whole subject back up as it's kinda been beaten to death.

Anyway, I'll let you finish that work.