2023 NCAA seeding discussion

[Show_Me]

24 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

To be fair, it is only 10% of the formula...

So how does it work for like 2nd in the Socon vs. 3rd or 4th in the Big Ten?  Does the Socon 2nd get the advantage?

The 10% can easily prove to be the difference between 2 or more "comprable" resumes.

I wouldn't be opposed to reducing the reward to 5% of the formula understaing that all Conferences are not the same.

[1032004]

15 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

Socon got two allocations at 133 and 174.

They also had 3 at large selections.

But that wasn't really my question.   And Socon was just an example, can really apply to almost any conference compared to the B10.  For example does 3rd in the ACC get the matrix points over 5th in the B10?

 

[MPhillips]

10 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

They also had 3 at large selections.

But that wasn't really my question.   And Socon was just an example, can really apply to almost any conference compared to the B10.  For example does 3rd in the ACC get the matrix points over 5th in the B10?

 

My bad. Just throwing it out there.

[KCMO2]

I may have missed it, but does anyone else have a problem with Truax seeded second at 197?  He does have a good win over Beard (3-2), and a decent win over Foy, but otherwise his results are very unimpressive for a 2 seed.  His 2 Pac-12 tourny wins were both 1 pt. victories over the #22 seed and a non-qualifier.  He has 6 bonus pt. wins this season, but all but 1 are vs non-qualifiers.  He also got stuck by Trumble, the 6th seed.

As a Tiger fan I'm happy he's a 2 since he's on the same side as #3 Elam, but it's hard seeing him as the 2nd best guy in this weight class.

[Tigerfan]

Spreading the wealth was a explicitly stated objective back when they abandoned prior year success and when to a formula. That first year, ACC and Pac-12 had huge jumps in qualifiers, iirc. I think as fans we are short-sighted if we start giving 5th placers in the Big10 better seeds than lesser conference champs. If you’re goal is to reduce D1 wrestling to 12-15 schools, then sure, but giving that App St or Cal Poly champ a “better” path to AA ultimately keeps those programs alive. As long as conference tournaments remain the qualifiers, it makes sense to treat those conferences with respect, even though we all know that some years/weights the Big10 has 7/8 guys all better than a fringe conference champ. 

[Gus]

21 minutes ago, KCMO2 said:

I may have missed it, but does anyone else have a problem with Truax seeded second at 197?  He does have a good win over Beard (3-2), and a decent win over Foy, but otherwise his results are very unimpressive for a 2 seed.  His 2 Pac-12 tourny wins were both 1 pt. victories over the #22 seed and a non-qualifier.  He has 6 bonus pt. wins this season, but all but 1 are vs non-qualifiers.  He also got stuck by Trumble, the 6th seed.

As a Tiger fan I'm happy he's a 2 since he's on the same side as #3 Elam, but it's hard seeing him as the 2nd best guy in this weight class.

As a Jackrabbit fan, I am good with Truax getting the 2 seed. 

[1032004]

I don't think the smaller conference guys were always necessarily "rewarded"...

For example, Murin being seeded ahead of Millner despite fairly comparable resumes (and Millner beating him 8-1 at NCAA's last year).   It honestly looks like Murin could have gotten it because of his injury default victory over Yahya, who had beaten Millner (and beat Murin in the dual). 

[Ragu]

Cornell fan POV

Hope Ungar can shock the world. Kept it close with Glory in EIWA finals. Crazier things have happened. 

133 might be the most exciting semi finals in the tournament. Vito has the ability to win the whole thing

Cornella v McNeil is a great r2 match

I think we see Johnson vs Yianni for a second time in the semis which is super exciting

Most likely Monday for a 3rd time but watch out for Facundo

Foca might pin his way to the semis

Anyone can win 197 and Cardenas is hot coming into Tulsa, who knows?

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

BYRD v. ORINE

In the matter of Byrd v. Orine, the State alleges theft of a seed, and, by way of proof, provides to this supposed jury the following:

 

Kai Orine is seeded #5 at 133 in the NCAA tournament. Lucas Byrd is seeded #10. Kai Orine skipped the ILLINOIS/NC State dual. Orine was available to wrestle twice only six days before the dual with ILLINOIS beating the #27 and #104 wrestlers in three- and two-point decisions. He was available to wrestle in the next team event after the ILLINOIS dual.

Ladies and Gentlemen of this supposed jury, he ducked. 

Lucas Byrd showed up and pinned the NC State backup in 4:34. 

In terms of records, Lucas Byrd has 13 more wins than the defendant and one less loss. The plaintiff is 28-4, while the defendant has a 15-5 record. 

Orine has lost to the #51, #39, #4, #17 and #8 wrestlers per wrestlestat.com. 

Byrd lost to the #9, #7, #15 and #11 wrestlers according to wrestlestat.com. 

The North Carolina State defendant lost to #4 Michael McGee by the score of 4-18. Lucas Byrd beat that same Michael McGee in the NWCA All-Star match. 

Orine has a 0.642 RPI according to wrestlestat.com, while Byrd's is at 0.658. 

Orine's claim to fame is winning a conference that supposedly had a chunked-up 125-pounder as the cream of their crop in Sam Latona. I submit to you, my friends, that Sam Latona would've wrestled at 133 last year if it wasn't for a higher ranked wrestler at Virginia Tech named Korbin Myers, the 4th seed in last year's NCAA tournament. 

That's the same Korbin Myers who Lucas Byrd was beating 4-2 in last year's tournament when he pinned him. 

The State rests. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by ILLINIWrestlingBlog

[Quaker118]

On 3/9/2023 at 10:15 PM, Ragu said:

Cornell fan POV

Hope Ungar can shock the world. Kept it close with Glory in EIWA finals. Crazier things have happened. 

133 might be the most exciting semi finals in the tournament. Vito has the ability to win the whole thing

Cornella v McNeil is a great r2 match

I think we see Johnson vs Yianni for a second time in the semis which is super exciting

Most likely Monday for a 3rd time but watch out for Facundo

Foca might pin his way to the semis

Anyone can win 197 and Cardenas is hot coming into Tulsa, who knows?

Before Unger can shock the world he has to beat Miller in the first round. Miller beat him easily in the dual meet 6-1. They should have met in the EIWA semis but for some reason no one there could understand Unger got the one seed over Glory. He lost to the 2,3,and 4 during the season. Looking forward to that match. 

[TylerDurden]

Orine has better cumulative wins than Byrd. Orine has wins over:

No. 9 seed Phillipi 2x (who beat Byrd)

No. 16 Biscoglia

No. 6 Latona

Byrd's best wins are No. 25 Henson, No. 13 Cannon and No. 12 Ragusin - no wins over anyone seeded ahead of him. 

In fact, Byrd doesn't really have a strong resume for seeding purposes. Didn't see No. 1 RBY, lost to No. 14 Mendez, lost to No. 7 Colaiocco, and lost to No. 8 Nagao

[BigRedFan]

1 hour ago, Quaker118 said:

Before Unger can shock the world he has to beat Miller in the first round. Miller beat him easily in the dual meet 6-1. They should have met in the EIWA semis but for some reason no one there could understand Unger got the one seed over Glory. He lost to the 2,3,and 4 during the season. Looking forward to that match. 

Ungar.  This isn't The Odd Couple.

Miller lost to Sotelo in the regular season twice, who Ungar beat in the tournament.  Miller lost to Wagner, who Ungar beat.

There are reasons why Ungar was seeded ahead of Miller.  I'm sure some understand why.

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

50 minutes ago, TylerDurden said:

Orine has better cumulative wins than Byrd. Orine has wins over:

No. 9 seed Phillipi 2x (who beat Byrd)

No. 16 Biscoglia

No. 6 Latona

Byrd's best wins are No. 25 Henson, No. 13 Cannon and No. 12 Ragusin - no wins over anyone seeded ahead of him. 

In fact, Byrd doesn't really have a strong resume for seeding purposes. Didn't see No. 1 RBY, lost to No. 14 Mendez, lost to No. 7 Colaiocco, and lost to No. 8 Nagao

Let me note that Lucas Byrd is 2-1 against Phillipi, and I've said my piece about Latona.

Byrd is 16-7 while Kai Orine is 10-10 against common opponents.

Last season, Byrd was 5th in the nation. Orine made Round of 16. The year before that Byrd was also 5th, while Orine didn't start for NC State.

And the guy who beat Orine 18-4 is 0-2 versus Byrd. I think the members of this supposed jury are smart enough to realize:

(1) The Seeding Committee has to take history into account. Otherwise, they will give the third seed to a guy like Aaron Brooks again in the future.

(2) Don't seed anybody as high as #5 who has given up 18 points in a match.

(3) Use common sense.

(4) Lucas Byrd is a wrestler from Ohio, but Byrd wrestles for the University of ILLINOIS. Now, think about that. That does not make sense! Why would a wrestler from Ohio - a 133 pound wrestler - want to live in Champaign with a bunch of ILLINI? That does not make sense! What does that have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! None of this makes sense. If Lucas Byrd wrestles for ILLINOIS, you must acquit!

[ionel]

4 hours ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

BYRD v. ORINE

Ladies and Gentlemen of this supposed jury, he ducked.  

He ducked the byrd!

This is just fowl, in the words of John Smith: how low can you go?  

[D3 for LU]

Just the idea of a bunch of EIWA placers getting paired off early in the tournament and knocking each other off doesn't sit well with me (for that fact other conferences having the same thing done to them as well.)

Keep 'em separated.

D3

[Red Blades]

Wrestling should do the seeding like basketball - no grumbling about seeds there:

Geno Auriemma on UConn's NCAA tournament No. 2 seed: 'If we weren't called UConn, we'd be a No. 1' (msn.com)