scourge165

Yeah, this and it's also kinda lazy to say "the fanbase" is complaining about X because you have a handful of people complaining. "The fanbase" save for a very small number of people don't complain about St. Louis. They seem pretty satisfied with the NCAAs behind held there. You're absolutely right...some complaints are warranted. Others aren't. There's a bit more nuance to it than seeing someone in a thread saying, "I don't like the cobblestone in St. Louis," and saying, "see, the fan base complains about everything. Does it? Or is it like 3 people out of tens of thousands?

Whoever ends up at Michigan or Iowa...

Of course Mcllravy would be great in today's Wrestling. I have no doubt about that. Same goes with all these guys. I don't know that he'd have the same level of success. I think you'd take a guy like Gerry Abas who was pretty clearly a superior technician and he'd most likely just be in better shape and hold onto a a match like the one Mcllravy had as a Freshmen. As I said, I got talked out of my position on Mcllravy a bit. I had him in the top 3-4 all time(again, starting in the "modern era when guys got to Wrestle for 4 years)...but an old coach/Wrestler made a persuasive argument that he wouldn't be able to just grind guys down and moved him down So I'm really not firm in where I put Mcllravy beyond great. Is he top 5, 10...top 15? He was great and he'd be great if he was coming up now. And it should be obvious why athletes from the ~80s weren't as advanced in terms of technique. So many of them started Wrestling in HS or maybe 8th grade. Lee Kemp started as a Soph in Ohio after getting cut from Basketball, was like 11-8 as a JR and then won two state titles and was in the NCAA finals as a Freshmen. So of course I think guys who were that physically gifted would have a lot of success today... If you're comparing guys and how dominant they were in their era vs how dominant the PSU guys are now, then it tilts the board back a little more even. I'd still probably lean PSU, but it'd be close. I don't think anyone can have too much confidence in these guesses though. Joe Williams vs David Taylor? Even using how they were vs their contemporaries, how do you envision that match going. If you're including FS accolades, I guess Taylor gets it, but again, Williams is a guy I have a ton of respect for. I was a kid went he was Wrestling and that guy looked like a comic book character. His waist looked like it was 28 inches, his chest about 48 and he just controlled guy. TJ Williams is right there as well. Those were ironically a couple guys from Iowa who DIDN'T seem like they pressed the pace as much as other Iowa greats. You're talking about ALL TIME greats in almost every weight class...and both sides have guys not included. Barry Davis 3X Champ, 160-some wins? Mark Ironside, Randy Lewis? He was a fluke injury from being 2/1/1/1. Carter Starocci could win 5 NCAA Titles and he's not on there and if he is, Ed Ruth who was 3/1/1/1 and about as dominant as you can be doing so isn't on the list for PSU. I can go down these rabbit holes watching hours of certain guys or different Wrestling. In fact, when I reached out and asked the aforementioned older Wrestler about some of these guys, he sent me a bunch of videos and I watched about a dozen Randy Lewis matches. I have massive respect for all of these guys.

LOL...how the hell did this turn into a Red/Blue political debate? You need infrastructure. It's really that simple. St Louis is...AWESOME. They have done the best job IMO. If it's in STL, I'm going. If it's in NYC again I'll go(MSG and Wrestling was just...so unique and cool). I had no interest in going to Tulsa because of those damn Republicans! LOL..OR I'd just been there and it wasn't the most exciting outside of the Wrestling(Which as noted, is always great).

Well, they may have been put to bed, but Gable's waking them up again; This certainly sounds like he could wrestle next season(I'd imagine a limited schedule that UM would be thrilled to get)...cement his status as the greatest HWT ever and then go into Freestyle. It's not like his training has to change that much. He doesn't ride too much in Folkstyle and the transition for him would be pretty simple...I'd assume. “I miss being on the mats,” Steveson said, according to an MMAFighting.com article that was also shared on Steveson’s social media. “I miss showcasing my skills every year and going out there and putting on a good show and going out there and winning the national tournament. I miss it. I still have that competitive fighter and hope to get back out there really soon.

I think Cunningham deserves credit, but...I don't know how we can discredit the man himself. When Cael went to Penn State, I remember saying(and hardly being in the minority) that Penn State was going to have a dynasty. My thought was they'd get Penn's best and really that was it. In reality, he hasn't always gotten the best in-state Wrestlers, but he finds Wrestlers who fit what he's looking for. There's also the way they talk about Cael. They hold Cunningham and in high esteem(Cody for that matter). But Cael was turning ISU around, then almost immediately turned Penn State into a powerhouse. I think there's a case to be made that Iowa was more dominant than PSU. If you used the same scoring, I believe Iowa still has the most dominant 3-4 NCAA team Titles since ~1970. So I guess in that sense you could argue that Gable is on a higher level than Cael(I think you'd really be nit picking)...but Cael brought instant credibility. The type I think a, Burroughs, Dake or Taylor could bring, should either decide they want to get into coaching.

Ahhh...damn, I meant Cael and GABLE, not Brands. I'm not sure Brands has that same ability that GABLE did.

And I'll give the edge to Cael because...I've seen him. For ME to give it to Uetake, it'd be coming from a place of ignorance and just looking at his accomplishments. I don't have Cael ranked over Uetake, I just don't have Uetake ranked. But I really do get and respect why others feel differently.

He was an Olympic champ a year before his first NCAA Title...so while you can't just hand out NCs, I think it's safe to say he would have won it. As for where he ranks all-time...we're really just guessing. 2X Olympic Champ, 3X undefeated Champ...the credentials speak for themselves. It's just like the Iowa vs PSU matchup. It's too difficult to compare Wrestlers from one era to another. Agreed. I don't quite have the same issue with guys who wrestle a more strategic match. It depends who it is. Marinelli or RBY? One is capable of attacking and wrestling "strategically" is a choice. One is just limited physically and he needs to try and sorta grind you down and wear you out. It's one of the things Cael CLEARLY does a good job at, having his Wrestlers attack without the fear of giving up points. That's a metal hurdle a lot of guys struggle to get over. But just again, I think you're absolutely right...there is no formula to come up with the best Wrestlers ever. Every 3X Champ isn't ahead of David Taylor. Every 4X Champ isn't ahead of every 3X Champ. Lee Kemp is ahead of...Logan Stieber in my opinion. He lost in the finals on a referees decision....by the way, lets bring that back...see how fun we can make shit next year! Just have refs picking who wins if the match is tied after 7 minutes! I want no criteria...I want to hear a ref say to Tom Brands upon asking why Real Woods lost on a referees decision, "because you're very mean to me." Seriously though, it's NEVER as simple as putting shit into a formula. BUT...it also makes it virtually impossible to really rank Wrestlers from before the ~80s. A lot of my opinions are informed by a couple guys who Wrestled in the 80s, who saw these Wrestlers, one who reffed and actually reffed a lot of Iowa. But I guess that's how it works in every sport, isn't it? If you actually know Football, you understand you can't compare QB stats from the 1970s to today. The game has just changed too much.

Fair enough. I think of Kemp as one of the all-time greats. Top...5(at least in the 4 years eligibility era). Kemp went 2/1/1/1 and he lost on a referees decision despite getting the only takedown of the match, stopped Gable from making a comeback(at least that's how the story goes) and would have almost certainly won an Olympic Gold in '80. But we just disagree on how significant the style of Wrestling is. To be clear, I think I'd have said the same about Carr, or Taylor or just a lot of the better '65 pounders in recent years....which is why I like to just compare guys vs their era and measure what they actually accomplished vs what another athlete has accomplished. I really hate saying I think this Wrestler would beat Lee Kemp. He's the greatest Wrestler in Wisconsin history and better than anyone FROM Wisconsin.

This seems fair...and I'd say something both Cael and Brands have in common that very few coaches do(I'd argue Koll might have a similar ability). Brands and a guy like Ryan, they can recruit elite Wrestlers. It seems like Cael(or maybe it's Cunningham, who knows) is looking for a type and Gable did have an incredible ability to get the best out of his athletes. The Barry Davis story where he tried to leave before the B1Gs might be the best example.

I don't think that people are saying Cael is BETTER than Gable at coaching(certainly not "much better")...at least that's not how I've read it. I've read it that Cael has...evolved beyond where Gable and Iowa was. The sport has...which is to be expected, it's been 20+ years, but Cael in particular given his success. Cael's best teams haven't been better than Gable's but right now...in 2023, the opinion some had shared, myself included, is that Gable's ideology wouldn't work. He couldn't have Iowa guys who were so much more relentless until they broke their opponents, just beat them up and score repeatedly late in big matches. PSU guys don't gas and there were plenty of matches Iowa Wrestlers won vs much better technicians based on their gas tanks alone. How much weight are you really putting on the Banach Gold Medals? They were the best when you took out most of the best Wrestlers from the field. It's not nothing. They made Olympic teams and they were better than who Japan and a few other good Wrestling countries had. They never won world medals and '84 is, in large part, the only success the 9 Gold or Silver medalists in Freestyle from '84 had. So who's losing? Given that Lou kinda tried to outpower guys, I'll take McCoy there. at 197, Bo Nickal wins. 184-Brooks or Ruth could have. 174-I won't pretend to know and I think it's kinda silly to even have him on there. In reality, if we're having the 1948 version of Joe Scarpello on the roster, he's probably not competitive against most College Wrestlers. Nobody really has any idea what he looked like or how he wrestled. We know that after the NCAA didn't wrestle for a few years, he came in shortly after, had a couple of 11-0 or 15-0 seasons and won 3 titles. Is that enough to form any type of...well, informed opinion? 165-Joe Williams-Taylor I have no clue. Williams is the first guy starting heavy and moving down who could have very quickly adjusted all the passing the ankle bullshit. He also Wrestled very close matches vs great Wrestlers. I would lean Taylor, but I'm a huge Wiliams fan. 157-Nolf? If you're just going by NCAA finishes, 2/1/1/1...but I'm not. But I think that needs to be mentioned. Wrestled vs some of the better '57 pounders ever, beat them and especially with I-Mar, he was on pace to be an All-Time great 4X Champ and then along came Nolf. 149-Again, I think this is a extremely tough match to call. I'll just qualify this by saying I thought Mcllravy was one of best ever...but a pretty compelling argument was made as to why he shouldn't be. He needed I think 3 TDs late and a stall call to beat Abas, went to OT with Bono. He won by wearing guys out(he was click with that boot scoot as well). But is he wearing Zain out? 141-I'd go with Ironside...and I'd say he should be ranked higher than Lee. 133-Brands, again, clearly ranks higher than RBY(especially now). But if he wrestled his style vs RBY... 125-This one's beyond obvious. This has been discussed at length, but if you're going by how Ed Banach or Chris Cambell wrestled their style vs how Brooks/Ruth/Nickal wrestled, I don't see how they win. If you're going by where they should rank historically...well, I'm still not sure about them, but it gets a little easier to pick who'd win at 133/141/149. Then it's Iowa guys. 165 you have Taylor, a 2X Hodge winner and if we're going to count Freestyle accomplishments, a WC and an Olympic Champ when there was no Eastern Bloc boycott...which obviously also included Cuba, Iran, Poland...a LOT of the elite Wrestlers. Ultimately, I think it's fun to look at each teams best lineup's or wrestlers, but this is ALMOST always going to favor the most recent Wrestlers in an actual hypothetical matchup.

Uetake seems like a safe bet given he was an Olympic Champ his first year...and then Henson. Ferrari likely has his 3rd(if we're just talking about pure Wrestling ability). Would have been interesting to see how he matched up with Nickal...or just how he progressed. Johnny Thompson, Oliver and Hendricks like you said...Chris Perry probably doesn't make the lineup.

Ironside is a good dude. I've had the pleasure to get to meet him on a few occasions. He's remembered meeting me(first when I was a HS kid) and then came up and have some kind words when I saw him at the NCAAs. Too bad he got screwed so bad here.

LOL...that's not funny to Ironside I'm sure, but that is comically bad. 90% of that match was Wrestled like St. John had a 1 point lead with 15 seconds left and...you could have called about a dozen fleeing the mat calls? One of the great rule changes are the out of bounds rules now in play. In a match like this where the ref doesn't want to make a call(however obvious) you at least can't just hide near the out of bounds line. Also cost us another Ironside vs Kolat match. Didn't those two have a GREAT match that year where Kolat lost in old school Iowa fashion? By the Iowa guy getting 7 TDs in the last 30 seconds when a guy is gassed?

I do actually. Kemp was incredible, but I don't think this version of Kemp could hang with O'Toole's scrambling. I still think Kemp's the better Wrestler...just like I think Babe Ruth is a better baseball player than...Joey Meyer, but if you're asking how 1970s/80s Kemp would do with O'Toole right now, I think O'Toole would really get him.

Yeah, but when you do this, then a AAA hitter is going to be a better pitcher than Cy Young. Babe Ruth in today's game would be maybe a good HS player, perhaps a Juco. The Packers teams of the 60s would get beaten by a good SEC team now. I generally assume we're doing this in a "how dominant were they," and then using their level of greatness vs their era. I've heard National Champs, AAs, Wrestlers from the 80s(even early 90s) talk about how the technique is SO much better today. The BIGGEST Gable and Iowa fanboi kinda chuckled at Gable's wrestling and then said he wouldn't be an AA today. Anecdotal, but what is Gable going to do when they're diving over and trying to pass the ankle and all that? So I guess it's how great were they vs how great are athletes today. Mcllravy for instance, he was incredible. Again, worse a lot of guys out. 16-15 first NC, then an 8-3 win, controlled that one, lost when he couldn't quite come back and then won an OT match. Was he actually better on his feet than Zain as has been suggested? Or did he wear guys down and then start racking up TDs? Zain wasn't exactly a slouch on his feet. These exercises are just kinda pointless if you do it the way you're suggesting. You're top 10 at almost always going to be from the past ~20 years. I'd say only Cael and Abas(arguably) would be on the list of all time greats who'd win right now who wrestled pre-2000...but that statement's gonna go over like a fart in church...on a hot day(particularly among the Iowa crowd).

There's a guy who was born in 1790 who's got Grandchildren alive today... President Tyler. I really don't see it having any bearing on this discussion, but it is WILD to me.

He does talk about PSU...he just talks about how they're really...not that good and they'll probably lose. He's either the most neurotic person in the history of the world or just trolling.

I just don't get how someone can watch the NCAAs and think we need these massive, sweeping changes. 3 point TDs or 0 point escapes, push-outs like the sport needs these sweeping overhauls to problems that don't really exist. These changes would make the sport unrecognizable. I get trying to create more action on the mat, eliminating that stupid ankle hook that's effectively the same as dropping down to the ankle for 5 seconds, work to turn...alright.

Actually had me watching WBB. She's fun to watch. The LSU player that just followed her around at the end of the game was obnoxious, but...good watch. Also...no clue Elton John coached Basketball, but that was fun to see.

What about Ironside at 141? He went 6/3/1/1 IIRC. Won the Hodge in '98. 4X B1G Champ, 4X AA(6/3/1/1). Lost a couple very close matches to St. John in the Semis. These are some amazing lineups...whatever tweaks you may make. There is a very reasonable case to be made to put Ruth in there over Starocci(or Brooks). Same with a couple Hawkeyes.

Angelo has a visit scheduled for Wisconsin this weekend according to rumors on the Iowa board. This wouldn't shock me as he might as well take multiple visits... I suspect we'll see Angelo wrestling at some program in the future, but still have to go through another year or two of AJ putting out posts speculating about some big announcement...with no big announcement(regarding wrestling, though we may find out what state institution he'll be spending ~5-10 years at). I don't know why, but I'm still rooting for Angelo. I don't know any of them, but it seems like he's already being written off and so far as I can tell, he flexed and did a little shit talking, but he's being lumped in with the brothers poor behavior. Just hope he is his own man and doesn't blow a chance at a free education.

I mean...I probably wouldn't call OJ a murderer if it were just the two of us(I'd hate for some random man to come along and stab me and get all that blood all over OJ)...but I will do it here.

I'm with you on the headgear. Of all the Wrestling you'll be doing, a tiny fraction is an actual match. Having your ear swell up to the size of a Golf ball and start to fold over...I don't really get what's cool about that, but that's for HS rules I guess. You're legally allowed to be an idiot when you're 18! Running a guy off has gotten worse. I think "working for the turn," will mostly just be guys like Starocci making it look like they're working for a turn. I'd definitely do something about hooking the ankle. You can't stay on the ankle for 5 seconds, but you can hook it for the whole period? I'll just reiterate my general point. We shouldn't go looking for problems to fix. The MFFs, those are actually problems. If not counting them as a loss on the record, at LEAST count them as a loss for seeding purposes. More action on top. But I think the pushout rule is going to really hurt the sport.