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Thank you kind sir. Any way to see guys that went from 197 to heavyweight compared to other weight bumps?

I said “lol wut” because I was confused how you were trying to claim that 3 guys that won titles before moving up in weight somehow proves your point. Your argument has been that guys typically IMPROVE as they move up in weight. If they already won a title down a weight before moving up, that’s generally not really improving. And you were the one that first focused on champs. Here’s one of your earlier statements: “Lets take the NCs each year every year and see how they did as a Jr and Sr vs Fresh and Soph. Where do you think there's a bigger correlation? Their grade or the weight?” You were also the one that turned this into an overall moving up vs cutting or staying the same argument. Yes, plenty of guys do just as good or better when moving up. But plenty of guys struggle too. But for guys going from 197 to heavyweight, that struggle is pretty rare, and again, you continuing to try to use a guy that was undefeated going into NCAA’s as an example of that is pretty funny (Bastida has also only wrestled one NCAA tourney at heavyweight btw). Got any other examples? My overall point in posting originally was more in response to @bnwtwg and I think a couple others who have repeatedly claimed in other threads that there should be an ADDITIONAL weight in between 197 and heavyweight. I strongly disagree with that. I’m totally on board with shifting 184 and 197 up though. I would say 270+ would be “full sized” IMO. I do think it’s interesting that you’d consider 250 to be “full sized” after previously commenting about the “90 lb gap.”

That still gives 1 advancement point

Guessing stuff like this will start happening in wrestling if it hasn’t already - Tulsa football players claiming they never received NIL money that was promised. The QB interviewed Legas was apparently a 2x Utah state wrestling champ. https://www.fox23.com/news/tu-football-players-express-frustrations-over-not-receiving-nil-money-they-say-former-coach-promised/article_6a5f7da4-b11c-11ef-bd67-df089fe7c661.html

Looking at some of the favorites for this year between 133-197 133: could go either way, Crookham/Byrd/Bouzakis/Bailey career 133’s so far, Ayala/Davis up from 125 141: could go either way, Alirez and Bartlett down from 149 (yes I know Bartlett wasn’t a real 149 but also was never a 133), Mendez up from 133 149: Henson/Van Ness/Watters career 149’s, Parco only wrestled 141 as a redshirt. Lovett did do the rare 2 weight bump and AA’d at the higher weight after not AA’ing at the lower one 157: Shapiro career 157 so far, Kasak up from 149 165: Mesenbrink career 165 so far 174: O’Toole/Haines/Hamiti all up 184: Starocci up from 174, Keckeisen career 184 197: Buchanan/Cardenas/Ferrari/Little career 197’s so far, Barr up from 184 So in all likelihood we’ll see a career 165 win there, and someone bumping up win 174. 133, 149, 197 I’d lean towards a non-bumper 184 lean towards a bumper 141 and 157 tossups

Lol wut? For one, if your argument is guys doing BETTER as they move up, then technically you should not be including prior champs… But I was, although it only makes sense to focus on that particular year. But to help you out should probably exclude 125 and heavyweight since 125’s can’t move up and my argument is that 197’s do well moving up. So even doing that, of the remaining 8 weights, in the last 3 tournaments 14 had not wrestled at a lower weight previously and 10 had. Also was Parris really “full sized”? I thought he was about 250ish?

2022 125 - Suriano - down from 133 133 - RBY - same weight 141 - Lee - same weight 149 - Yianni - previously up from 141 157 - Deakin - previously up from 149 165 - O’Toole - same weight 174 - Starocci - same weight 184 - Brooks - same weight 197 - Dean - up from 184 285 - Gable - same weight So among champs, it certainly seems more common to stay at the same weight than move up. Just not sure of the index compared to total people that move up or stay the same.

2023 champs: 125 - Glory - same weight 133 - Vito - up from 125 141 - Alirez - previously down from 149 149 - Yianni - previously up from 141 157 - O’Connor - previously up from 149 165 - O’Toole - same weight 174 - Starocci - same weight 184 - Brooks - same weight 197 - Nino - previously up from 184 285 - Parris - same weight

Laird fits in with your pattern of “doing better as he got older,” but he’s not an example of bumping up to heavyweight from 197 and doing worse. Here let’s look at last year’s champs: 125 - Figueroa - same weight 133 - Vito - previously moved up from 125 141 - Mendez - up from 133 149 - Henson - same weight 157 - Haines - same weight 165 - O’Toole - same weight 174 - Starocci - same weight 184 - Keckeisen - same weight 197 - Brooks - up from 184 285 - Kerk - same weight So of last year’s champs, 7 of them were at the same weight they had been for their entire career. Of course 125’s don’t have the option of a lower weight and 3 of the others have since moved up for this season, but at least one of them will not be an NCAA champ this year.

To your first question, no that’s not what I was saying. I agree that guys tend to do better as they get older regardless of weight class. I just think that except for going from 197 to heavyweight, the improvement is probably better for guys that stay at the same weight or go down compared to guys that move up. And yes, going down isn’t very common. But staying at the same weight for 3 or 4 years is so was kinda just lumping in going down with that. I was not the one that brought up 125/133. Yes it was part of your larger point but you were the one that said “125’s often do better at 133” and I was just saying I think that’s probably the toughest jump for guys to make. Good call on McGee, I did not catch him. Looks like Scott Parker of Lehigh is another. Although you could also argue McGee was helped by transferring from ODU to ASU (he also redshirted after transfering and in between the move from 125 to 133). I would not say that Lamont is an argument in your favor, we don’t know how he would have done in 2020 but overall he was clearly better at 125 than 133 regardless of age. He went: 125 - 25-5, R12 133 - 15-7, tourney cancelled 125 - 13-3, 5th 125 - 12-6, R16 133 - 11-16, 0-2

Of active coaches (so not Gable or John Smith), I’d guess Rob Koll might have the biggest tree of head coaches if we include both former wrestlers and assistants: Grey - Cornell Nickerson - Northern Colorado Hahn - SDSU Leen - Brown Vinson - Buffalo

I’m not sure that I’m on board with the other poster’s argument that 197 is that much easier than 174 or 184. But heavyweight is absolutely easier than 197. Maybe @Wrestleknownothing could help but I’d be pretty confident in betting that outside of going from 197 to heavyweight, on the whole guys saw better place improvement if they stayed at the same weight or went down compared to moving up. I only mentioned that I was a lightweight to show that I’m not biased, as I would also bet that going from 125 to 133 has probably been the toughest jump for guys to make. If anything I was expecting someone to call 125 a child’s weight or something. Lots of examples of guys having success at 125 but not at 133 - Noto this year looks to be another example. Also Taylor Lamont, Rayvon Foley, Jack Mueller to name a few. Mueller is a great example as he went 125 - 6th, 133 - R12, 125 - 2nd. Again, the fact that you’re trying to use Bastida as an example of doing worse proves how tough it is to find a real example of someone going from 197 to heavyweight and doing worse. He is absolutely better as a heavyweight, but I’ll acknowledge that I’m sure some of that is due to him getting more folkstyle experience. Any other examples?

If we’re defining “prolific” as entertaining, then should probably add Ryder (tOSU) and Roman (Indiana) Rogotzke

IIRC it was going downhill even before that. But it could have been the reason Iowa started the Soldier Salute which further watered it down.

A bunch are disappointed/annoyed they didn’t get to see it from the fan’s perspective, which I’d agree with, don’t see too much speculation about why it didn’t happen other than one guy saying maybe they wanted to ensure Ferrari stays undefeated in his career (which I’d doubt was a factor) or maybe Arnold did actually get dinged up earlier in the tournament (which would really be the only acceptable reason IMO).

Brands implies they’re not decided yet. I’m assuming no one asked him why did Ferrari wrestle attached?

Fair enough, maybe it’s not many “people.” @bnwtwg definitely though. Yes, 197’s often do better at heavyweight. Using Bastida as an example for not is pretty funny, considering he was undefeated going into NCAA’s including wins over the guys that ended up finishing 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th (two of those by major) he was/is most definitely better at heavyweight, but was injured during NCAA’s last year. Looking at this season, you’ve also got Isaac Trumble, best finish R16 at 197, currently ranked #5 at heavyweight. Other past examples: Lucas Davison: best finish R16 at 197, 3x AA and 1x finalist at heavyweight Cassar: backup at 197, champ at heavyweight Derek White: slightly over .500 at 197, R12 then NCAA finals at heavyweight Jacob Kasper: 1-2 at NCAA’s at 184, 2x AA at heavyweight As a lightweight guy, I would actually disagree that “125’s often do better at 133.” If anything that might be the jump guys struggle with the most. Looking back in the wrestlestat era unless I missed it I don’t see a single guy such as the above that wrestled 125 as a non-redshirt and failed to AA, then bumped up to 133 and AA’d. Sure lots of guys that did well at 125 also do well at 133 though. Closest example might be Vito who went from 3rd & 4th at 125 to a 2x champ at 133, but if you use that example then you’d also have to use Kyle Snyder in the first list considering he had 4 losses at 197 and only 1 over the next 3 years at heavyweight.

McNeil went camo singlet in the finals however

And when 197’s go up to heavyweight they often do better too. Yet people think we need more upper weight classes…

Dean Heil (OSU) and his brothers Logan (Cleveland State/Campbell) and Josh (Campbell) combined for 2 NCAA titles. Both from Dean though

AJ and Angelo Ferrari hoping to get on the list

Buchanan wins 15-4

Pretty sure the first MFF in a tournament would normally count as a loss, but that matches against teammates do not count at all.

Forgot that we can thank Kevin Dresser for this