Gable did it, why can't Brands?

[AgaveMaria]

Iowa under Dan Gable won nine titles in a row & was poised to get #10. Even had the t-Shirts printed & waiting.

Then they fell short - far short according to their standards. They failed to win the Title that year and the next three. Then they won three, lost to John Smith & OSU & won three more when Gable retired.

Tom Brands is a Gable disciple but somehow isn't finding the magic. He isn't adapting, though things are changing. More to the idea of "don't do anything" which is what we see too often on the mat.

What did Gable do to re-light the fire & get back on top? Why can't Brands find a way to do it? Iowa is still a top name even as they are falling far short of expectations.

[Caveira]

I think you’re falling short of your goals.  You didn’t start nearly enough anti brands anti Iowa threads this week.  You can ask ai to generate many many more thread ideas if you need help 

Edited March 14 by Caveira

[mr.nonothingatall]

Don't get me started on this. My response would be so indepth and long winded, there would be so many grammatical errors that you could barely read it. In short brands don't coach the way gable did, brands have tried new things, the Iowa way is no longer intense crazy brutal practice, the gable era coaching style ended long ago. Brands don't coach it. I don't think anyone does anymore.

Edited March 15 by mr.nonothingatall

[ionel]

1 minute ago, mr.nonothingatall said:

Don't get me started on this. My response would be so indepth and long winded, there would be so many grammatical errors that you could barely read it. In short brands don't coach the gable do, brands have tried new thing, the Iowa way is not intense, crazy brutal practice, the gable era coaching style ended long ago. Brands don't coach it. I don't think anyone does anymore.

Is that you @kentuckymudflap ? 

[mr.nonothingatall]

Just now, ionel said:

Is that you @kentuckymudflap ? 

[boconnell]

Cael was undefeated, why can't everyone else be?

[ionel]

Just now, boconnell said:

Cael was undefeated, why can't everyone else be?

[D3 for LU]

1 hour ago, mr.nonothingatall said:

 I think we got KMF's avatar right here:

D3

Edited March 15 by D3 for LU

[mr.nonothingatall]

Just now, D3 for LU said:

 I think we got his avatar right here:

D3

[He Rassle]

He's the Thibodeau of wrestling.

[Lordnelson]

11 hours ago, ionel said:

Is that you @kentuckymudflap ? 

God I miss that guy

[Paul158]

Change is difficult.  Gable's way was great back in the day. Gritty, hard nose and ground and pound. Wrestling has been evolving for a long time now. Adaptability is very important. Growth mindset, flexibility and resilience are necessary for success. 

[AgaveMaria]

Asking questions is not "anti" anything. A Brands Iowa fighting for a title would be good for wrestling. Brands Iowa and Taylor OSU pushing Cael & Co is good for the sport as a whole.

I think if Danny(that is how we knew him in college) was coaching now the Iowa Style would be tweaked and his guys would be winning. One thing he was not: a "one style only" guy. Above everything else he pushed guys to maximize their talent. I think he would be doing it today while taking anything that works and adding it to the wrestlers who could use it.

Tom & Co are falling behind. Too many burnouts. What is being done with a premier Heavyweight with a ton of talent is criminal. Caliendo is very good, but not pushing. This is on the coaches.

After nine titles Gable had to tweak things and make a few changes. He did it. I don't see Brands doing it. I see Tom breaking guys, not making them.

[mr.nonothingatall]

30 minutes ago, AgaveMaria said:

Asking questions is not "anti" anything. A Brands Iowa fighting for a title would be good for wrestling. Brands Iowa and Taylor OSU pushing Cael & Co is good for the sport as a whole.

I think if Danny(that is how we knew him in college) was coaching now the Iowa Style would be tweaked and his guys would be winning. One thing he was not: a "one style only" guy. Above everything else he pushed guys to maximize their talent. I think he would be doing it today while taking anything that works and adding it to the wrestlers who could use it.

Tom & Co are falling behind. Too many burnouts. What is being done with a premier Heavyweight with a ton of talent is criminal. Caliendo is very good, but not pushing. This is on the coaches.

After nine titles Gable had to tweak things and make a few changes. He did it. I don't see Brands doing it. I see Tom breaking guys, not making them.

Gable was able to change simply because he was already the best at it. He was able to make small tweaks that allowed him to stay on top. The brands have tried to change. The problem with the brands is that they are attempting to make their changes, copy or resemble the changes that Penn State have done. The problem with that is you can never beat Penn State at their own game. Just like when other teams were trying to copy what Gable was doing they weren't able to catch up cuz Gable already knew the game better and he could make the tweaks that he needed to make to remain successful in the same way that Carl has done that at Penn State. The problem with the brands is that they're trying to copy a system that he's never done. If Iowa remained the Iowa style they would probably be more successful. The Iowa style isn't a changing Gable style. Iowa style means you practice hard. You practice relentless. You're always on the offensive. The brands have stopped coaching that for years. The brands have a very light practice, very technique, driven drilling times. Where they work on making there wrestlers best moves better, they work on setting up there wrestlers with there best moves and getting into positions that help them get to there best moves. (PSU trains for how to use your best move to open up other moves)  The problem is is the brands did not grow up doing that. The brands don't do that. It goes against their core so they're trying to do something that they have never done. They're trying to copy someone else's paper in class except they can't see the paper and are just guess what the answers are. By the time they know the answer class is over end everyone else has learned the next chapter. They are falling behind.

Brands also do not spend much time with the back ups, something that this past year was exposed very hard. They still believe that some guys in the room are there to get beat up on. Lots of other teams right now are focused on making everyone in the room better that way everyone in the room has better drill partners and there isn't a huge skill gap between starters.

Idk if it makes sense how I described it, but essentially they have gone away from the hard grinding practices. Which no one seems to believe. The guys are still getting hurt. But they do not practice that hard, they have slowed things down a lot. Trying to do what others are doing, but they need to either coach the way they used to or leave, because they keep trying new things and it's not panning out, they are too old to learn new things and Iowa is so separated from wanting to bring in new blood that they have no one to coach them new thing

Even after my rant, there are still a lot of flaws to describe in what's happening at iowa. I know people who have been in the program and who are still around the program. This is why I feel so damn strong about it. But never the less there will be someone on here who disagrees with me or fails to believe that Iowa runs soft practices, makes bad coaching decisions in big matches, and doesn't help there wrestlers plan or strategize at all. 

 

 

[ionel]

1 hour ago, mr.nonothingatall said:

Gable was able to change simply because he was already the best at it. He was able to make small tweaks that allowed him to stay on top. The brands have tried to change. The problem with the brands is that they are attempting to make their changes, copy or resemble the changes that Penn State have done. The problem with that is you can never beat Penn State at their own game. Just like when other teams were trying to copy what Gable was doing they weren't able to catch up cuz Gable already knew the game better and he could make the tweaks that he needed to make to remain successful in the same way that Carl has done that at Penn State. The problem with the brands is that they're trying to copy a system that he's never done. If Iowa remained the Iowa style they would probably be more successful. The Iowa style isn't a changing Gable style. Iowa style means you practice hard. You practice relentless. You're always on the offensive. The brands have stopped coaching that for years. The brands have a very light practice, very technique, driven drilling times. Where they work on making there wrestlers best moves better, they work on setting up there wrestlers with there best moves and getting into positions that help them get to there best moves. (PSU trains for how to use your best move to open up other moves)  The problem is is the brands did not grow up doing that. The brands don't do that. It goes against their core so they're trying to do something that they have never done. They're trying to copy someone else's paper in class except they can't see the paper and are just guess what the answers are. By the time they know the answer class is over end everyone else has learned the next chapter. They are falling behind.

Brands also do not spend much time with the back ups, something that this past year was exposed very hard. They still believe that some guys in the room are there to get beat up on. Lots of other teams right now are focused on making everyone in the room better that way everyone in the room has better drill partners and there isn't a huge skill gap between starters.

Idk if it makes sense how I described it, but essentially they have gone away from the hard grinding practices. Which no one seems to believe. The guys are still getting hurt. But they do not practice that hard, they have slowed things down a lot. Trying to do what others are doing, but they need to either coach the way they used to or leave, because they keep trying new things and it's not panning out, they are too old to learn new things and Iowa is so separated from wanting to bring in new blood that they have no one to coach them new thing

Even after my rant, there are still a lot of flaws to describe in what's happening at iowa. I know people who have been in the program and who are still around the program. This is why I feel so damn strong about it. But never the less there will be someone on here who disagrees with me or fails to believe that Iowa runs soft practices, makes bad coaching decisions in big matches, and doesn't help there wrestlers plan or strategize at all. 

Probably didn't come thru on ESPN but they showed a couple historic clips on the big screen in-between matches during the OSU v IA dual at GIA.  The first was when Kendall Cross beat Terry Brands and Terry crawls off the mat after.  The second was when Fried pinned Tom.  

I don't know if any Iowa wrestlers were watching pretty sure TnT were annoyed.   I was sitting behind them so can't say for sure but 12.6k really enjoyed.

In picking a new coach maybe get one with no bad film out there.  Dake and Burroughs seem like safe bets. 

Edited March 15 by ionel

[mr.nonothingatall]

2 minutes ago, ionel said:

 

In picking a new coach maybe get one with no bad film out there.  Dake and Burroughs seem like safe bets. 

This means desanto has no shot fix made that cameraman very happy that day

[ionel]

1 minute ago, mr.nonothingatall said:

This means desanto has no shot fix made that cameraman very happy that day

They actually showed the Fix double boots choke hold on Desanto as well.  So yeah ... he is a no go! 

[mr.nonothingatall]

5 minutes ago, ionel said:

They actually showed the Fix double boots choke hold on Desanto as well.  So yeah ... he is a no go! 

Classic GIA.

[ionel]

1 minute ago, mr.nonothingatall said:

Classic GIA.

Is Randy Lewis available?  

[mr.nonothingatall]

4 minutes ago, ionel said:

Is Randy Lewis available?  

Define available? I'm sure he could show up to practice idk if he is gonna be on the mat for 2 hours or able to throw a dodgeball 

[jammenz]

17 hours ago, boconnell said:

Cael was undefeated, why can't everyone else be?

Paul Jenn didn't believe that.

[Caveira]

10 minutes ago, jammenz said:

Paul Jenn didn't believe that.

By today’s rules I don’t think Carl is undefeated  

[jmoney]

5 hours ago, AgaveMaria said:

Asking questions is not "anti" anything. A Brands Iowa fighting for a title would be good for wrestling. Brands Iowa and Taylor OSU pushing Cael & Co is good for the sport as a whole.

I think if Danny(that is how we knew him in college) was coaching now the Iowa Style would be tweaked and his guys would be winning. One thing he was not: a "one style only" guy. Above everything else he pushed guys to maximize their talent. I think he would be doing it today while taking anything that works and adding it to the wrestlers who could use it.

Tom & Co are falling behind. Too many burnouts. What is being done with a premier Heavyweight with a ton of talent is criminal. Caliendo is very good, but not pushing. This is on the coaches.

After nine titles Gable had to tweak things and make a few changes. He did it. I don't see Brands doing it. I see Tom breaking guys, not making them.

Rathjen left and is seeded better than Ryder Block

[dragit]

I think the simplest explanation is found in what I think was an Askren post from 2014.  Apologies in advance if I've got this or any of the details wrong, but I believe in trying to explain what has been the main problem for the last 15ish years (Iowa mainly handfighting and pushing but not attacking) he said that the problem is they don't know how to finish in the scrambles which had taken over the sport, so they aren't comfortable attacking in the old Iowa way, but rather just try to run clock with ties and hand fights and activity on the edge.  In other words, videos of Casey Cunningham and David Taylor spending a whole practice starting in scramble situations and thinking their way through them are probably not a common sight at Iowa practices. Obviously this isn't every wrestler every year, but to me this rings true and is the clearest way to explain the steady general deterioration since the 2010 championship (somewhat interrupted by the tremendous recruiting haul that produced the 2021 championship despite Penn State winning the big finals matches).  

My guess is that if Gable were coaching today, he'd be on the cutting edge.  He coached his Iowa style because it worked.  He also showed great acuity in adapting to his individual wrestlers.  He talked about how he was a wolf watching national teams and learning from them.  He was known for always thinking, thinking, thinking about how to solve problems at a granular level with his athletes.  I am quite sure that he would have adapted and succeeded as the sport changed and developed, and probably would have led a lot of that change.

It's no knock on his former champion wrestler(s) that they aren't as good at coaching as he was.  Only Sanderson can possibly be viewed as in that league as a coach.

[AgaveMaria]

4 hours ago, jammenz said:

Paul Jenn didn't believe that.

Redshirt year and not an official match towards his College career. It is what it is & we know it.

So far no one else has a perfect record for four full years like Cael. No sick day losses, no medical losses. Show up & wrestle. He deserves every accolade he is  given.

So do Yojo & the tough 3 timers who were undefeated while wrestling for their schools. That they were cheated out of a full four year career is a sad commentary on NCAA leadership and policies. If they had the full career I believe Yojo, Hodge and a few others would also have four years of perfection.