College Wrestling needs Tiebreaking Criteria for OT

[Scouts Honor]

On 12/21/2025 at 5:32 PM, ionel said:

ftfy

26.812

[Scouts Honor]

the free rule is ... i d k

why does the last person to score get criteria?

i thought we wanted to incentivize action... isn't that the first guy to score? that we should reward?

oh, but then he must be stalling if there isn't more scoring...

[Scouts Honor]

On 12/21/2025 at 5:55 PM, forkemaz said:

What is wrong with 3 pt TD and 4 pt NF?

it puts you in an inescapable hole.

it did not increase action.

 

[Scouts Honor]

On 12/21/2025 at 6:01 PM, Caveira said:

It was supposed to increase action and reduce stalling.   It didn’t.   now the whole dynamic is changed for no good reason.  It now allows for more stalling at the end of the tighter 1 td matches in the third period.  
 

It will also eventually turn into more rule changes as people complain about the dynamic changing.   I.e….  Reversals etc. 

once you start constantly tinkering with the rules.  It leads to more tinkering.  And more tinkering.   And more tinkering  

we used to Have a mathematical poster on here in the way back days of old when we had reactions.    He proved there isn’t more actual scoring. 
 

bring back reactions and said poster 

agreed

[Scouts Honor]

On 12/21/2025 at 6:17 PM, 1032004 said:

Was it stated that it was supposed to increase action?  I remember WKN’s thread showing it hadn’t, but I thought a bigger reason was to increase the value of a TD compared to other means of scoring.

The NCAA changed takedowns to 3 points in 2023-24 to boost offense, excitement, and creativity in college wrestling by rewarding risk-taking, closing the gap with escapes (1 pt) and reversals (2 pts), and making the sport more appealing to fans by increasing scoring and action, despite some debate about its effects on mat wrestling and stalling

[Scouts Honor]

On 12/21/2025 at 6:23 PM, forkemaz said:

I doubt anyone wants to increase the barrier to majors and techs. Especially if its positively affecting duel scores.

I thought I missed reactions at first but im over it. I dont miss them. WKN should just come back hes a grown man, why would a grown man need emjois?

It is very hard to directly incentivize more action without serious side effects. The higher TD and NF value putting wrestlers closer to majors and techs is about as good as it gets because a coach will implore them to push for those higher values in close duels.

I suspect if this sport were more duel based we would see action go up but only for the most dominant wrestlers. That may even be the case now but im not WKN and i dont have the spreadsheets. Id be interested to know if a % of the most dominant wrestlers are more actively scoring and where the drop off is if that is the case 

so one takedown a 4 second turn and an escape. and i have enough for a major.

not very much action in 7 minutes.

[Scouts Honor]

On 12/21/2025 at 6:30 PM, Caveira said:

The super duper high point total for a td was supposed to make wrestlers try to score more.   As if it’s that easy.   As if going 7 minutes isn’t already grueling enough they could or would shoot a zillion times a match.   
 

 

The NCAA moved to 3-point takedowns (starting 2023-24) primarily 

to boost scoring, increase excitement, and reward offensive action/risk-taking, and encouraging more creative, aggressive wrestling, though some debate its actual impact on increasing action. 

Key Reasons for the Change:

• Incentivize Offense: To get wrestlers out of neutral and actively trying for takedowns, rather than stalling or riding for riding time.

sorry, i just reposted this...

[Scouts Honor]

23 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

I'm not a fan of the two 30s either, but criteria also sucks. I like the idea of OT until someone scores, but then we end up with matches like Suriano-Fix at WNO.

So if we're spitballing, why not implement an "if you didn't win, you lost" rule? Something like one 6min OT period, first to score wins. If neither wrestler scores by the end of the OT, both wrestlers take a loss. If it's the finals of a tournament, fuck it, neither wrestler gets the gold medal and the weight class has no champion. 

A rule like this is technically a tie, yes, but my thinking is that counting it as a loss on one's record will be enough motivation for both wrestlers to open up and go for it.

lets just try a battle to the death sometime... (until someone scores, no stalling, keep refs out)

see how it plays out, hwo the fans react.

some tourney just do it.

[Scouts Honor]

2 hours ago, ionel said:

How bout kid who weighs in lightest wins the tie matches.  This would be easy and speed things up.

i love this

[ionel]

8 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

26.812

[MPhillips]

On 12/21/2025 at 7:08 PM, forkemaz said:

Did WKN make a post about Duel

No. 

[forkemaz]

51 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

it puts you in an inescapable hole.

it did not increase action.

 

How does it put you in an inescapable hole? You have access to the same scoring system. Your first point makes no sense.

 

Ive already addressed your second point and I agree.

[forkemaz]

46 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

i love this

Lmao

[dragit]

On 12/21/2025 at 7:08 PM, forkemaz said:

Did WKN make a post about Duel (not dual never dual) scoring and show there is no change in team scores? Because thats a dynamic that seems to me may have changed. 

As for rule changes in general, the entire wrestling community seems to have no clue about game theory, decision spaces, or what a perverse incentive is. I see the dumbest ideas for rule changes with the most glib justifications from fans to people who actually matter in this conversation. That being said. I do like 3 point take downs and 4 point near fall, even if i dont think its perfect.

I've always thought that the pushout and criteria rules are precisely tailored to creating good incentives.  But they had hit rock bottom with their prior almost comically bad rules before they got there.

[ionel]

On 12/21/2025 at 5:08 PM, forkemaz said:

Did WKN make a post about Duel ...

 

29 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

No. 

You sure ... he meant Doug Duell correct?

Lot of double letters missed and added on these hear forums.  

https://nwhof.org/national-wrestling-hall-of-fame/bio/2800

 

[dragit]

53 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

lets just try a battle to the death sometime... (until someone scores, no stalling, keep refs out)

see how it plays out, hwo the fans react.

some tourney just do it.

Good call on trying it out that way.  

[forkemaz]

1 minute ago, dragit said:

I've always thought that the pushout and criteria rules are precisely tailored to creating good incentives.  But they had hit rock bottom with their prior almost comically bad rules before they got there.

I completely disagree on pushout and criteria creating a decision space with more postive incentives than negative. The continuation rule tries to adress perverse incentives of the push out at least.

For me personally freestyle as a rule set is volatile by design and thus a mess. When even  hardcore wrestling heads cant agree on if its 2 points for x wrestler of 4 for y wrestler there are issues at the most fundamental level of your ruleset.

[forkemaz]

2 minutes ago, ionel said:

 

You sure ... he meant Doug Duell correct?

Lot of double letters missed and added on these hear forums.  

https://nwhof.org/national-wrestling-hall-of-fame/bio/2800

 

I have and will continue to say duel rather than dual. Because im right. Dual is nonsensical terminology. Want to debate me start a different thread on it. 

[ionel]

Just now, forkemaz said:

I have and will continue to say duel rather than dual. Because im right. Dual is nonsensical terminology. Want to debate me start a different thread on it. 

Do we need to do this again?  We had that war last decade ... plus it really gives @Interviewed_at_Weehawken nightmares.  

[forkemaz]

1 minute ago, ionel said:

Do we need to do this again?  We had that war last decade ... plus it really gives @Interviewed_at_Weehawken nightmares.  

Need to? Maybe. Im certainly willing to. I feel like we did this last year but im willing to do it every year until I start seeing duel used over dual. Make a thread on it. If you want.

[Scouts Honor]

19 minutes ago, forkemaz said:

How does it put you in an inescapable hole? You have access to the same scoring system. Your first point makes no sense.

 

Ive already addressed your second point and I agree.

i go for a takedown and fail. and go to my back

instead of 5 -0 it's now 7-0... and my opponent doesn't have to do anything for the next 5 minutes... even if he takes 4 stall calls.. i will only get 3 points.

[Scouts Honor]

i never understood dual.. other than two teams.

the term comes from the duel at ten paces.

[MPhillips]

18 minutes ago, ionel said:

he meant Doug Duell correct?

No. Messenbrink...

[MPhillips]

2 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

the term comes from the duel at ten paces.

Possibly the gun part...

[ionel]

14 minutes ago, forkemaz said:

Need to? Maybe. Im certainly willing to. I feel like we did this last year but im willing to do it every year until I start seeing duel used over dual. Make a thread on it. If you want.

How bout we just stick a forke in it?