Ranking Top 3 at 184

[nhs67]

6 minutes ago, ScottishSteel said:

Appreciate the explanation; I'm high on Neitenbach and don't see it with Goin so just wanted the different perspective cause I'm certainly not the smartest guy in the room.  

If we're talking smartest guy in the room, it is most definitely not me.  I'm lucky to even be in the room.  Like... if I'm in the room it's definitely because of identity theft and not because I actually deserve to be in the room.  If there is 10 people in the room, I am the 11th one at best... if there is 10,000 people in the room, I am the 10,001st one at best... if there is... well you get the point.

In summary, Neitenbach had a lot of 'bad' losses and no wins that I think should/would elevate him in to tier 5.  Goin had less matches, so less chances at 'bad' losses with comparable wins - despite Neitenbach having more matches, only having one comparable 'not bad' win.

'Bad' and 'not bad' are relative terminologies for a 'tier 5' gent.

[TW8]

Ferrari and McEnelly are the cream of the crop. 

Refs need to call stalling on dudes going to a knee.  

Edited 23 hours ago by TW8

[Fletcher]

MacEnelly and Sinclair attack more and I'm concerned that will hurt them against guys like Ferrari and Welsh.

To paraphrase Kyle Snyder, offense makes you a better wrestler but defense wins matches.

[The_KC_Godfather]

Probably a stupid question, but...Is Ryder for sure the starter at 184 with Brayden Thompson in the room? Thompson was #3 coming out of HS and eventually decided to stay when Ryder came in. But Ryder also left PSU because of Welsh, so doubt he chooses OSU if he's not the starter.

On Ferrari...keep in mind he beat Plott (6,6,2,4) and took Starocci to the brink (if I remember right, Starocci won on push outs/stalling...a veteran move against a freshman). Not saying he's the top guy (I think that's Mac), but think he is going to be super tough for anyone.

Welsh will have top-notch training partners, but wonder if a year away hurts him at all. Sinclair was right there with Mac in freestyle, so that will be a fun if they run into each other.

1) Mac

2) Ferrari

3) Sinclair

The best part is that OSU, Minny, Iowa, and Mizzou will all be at the national duals and the soldier salute.

Edited 22 hours ago by The_KC_Godfather

[Huskers20]

On 10/20/2025 at 7:57 AM, nhs67 said:

I would probably do my tiers something like this:

1 - McEnelly
2 - Ferrari, Ryder, Sinclair, Welsh
3 - Allred, Smith
4 - Brenot, Fishback, Mantanona, Thompson
5 - Ayzerov, Cartegena-Walsh, Dean, Goin

That is out the gate.  There is room for a lot of up/down movement.  I don't think Fishback enteres Tier 3, but Brenot and Mantanona could.  Ayzerov could have the most 'bloated' record of the bunch, but likely has Goin and Mantanona early in the season despite a very easy back stretch - will be good come seeding purposes for him, though.  Allred and Smith being upper classmen could see some reduction in production.  Soldano could see inclusion in to this list very quickly.

These are off the top, not sure if I missed anybody.  Thompson, I so badly wanted to put at Tier 3, but with his showing at the wrong weight class (174lbs) two seasons ago, I just couldn't.

Edit:  For those who don't remember or don't know how I do my tiers - unless someone is unexpectedly decked or injured, there shouldn't be many 'tier jumps' with wins or losses.  For example, anyone in Tier 4 should be expected to have good, competitive matches with anyone in from Tier 3 to Tier 5, but shouldn't expect to beat Tier 2 or lose to Tier 6.  There are outliers, but these generally hold true.  Disclaimer:  This list can (d)evolve.

Edit #2:  The tiers are alphabetical, once listed.  Don't get your panties in a bunch because I said Ryder > Welsh or Mantanona > Thompson.

Curious as to why tier 2 doesn't just include Allred. & Smith who are returning AAs. Have Ryder & Sinclair done anything to show they belong a tier ahead before wrestling significant matches at 184? I get Ferrari as he has a common opponent over Silas, but not really Welsh who split with Ruth at 174, who Silas did the same with. I think Smith beat him last year. 

[MPhillips]

3 minutes ago, Huskers20 said:

but not really Welsh who split with Ruth at 174

Regardless of the circumstances, he was a national runner up...

[Huskers20]

3 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

Regardless of the circumstances, he was a national runner up...

Would you do a large tier 2 or separate them? 
Personally I'd bump Ferrari to 1 and then combine 2&3. I could see all of those guys taking losses from each other.

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, Huskers20 said:

Curious as to why tier 2 doesn't just include Allred. & Smith who are returning AAs. Have Ryder & Sinclair done anything to show they belong a tier ahead before wrestling significant matches at 184? I get Ferrari as he has a common opponent over Silas, but not really Welsh who split with Ruth at 174, who Silas did the same with. I think Smith beat him last year. 

Welsh was 1-2 against Ruth at 174 in 2023-2024 winning their last match.  Smith was 1-1 against him last year at 184 losing their last meeting.  Allred was 1-0 against Ruth last year at 184.  Ruth was better in 2024 than this year going 26-4, winning Big Tens and placing 7th at NCAAs vs 16-9, 3rd at Big Tens, and R12 at NCAAs.  People who are bullish on Welsh think he improved significantly throughout the year and caught up to Ruth by NCAAs.  They also might think he beat a better version of Ruth that Allred and Smith faced this year.

Smith really has to be ahead of Allred because he beat him 2x last season and outplaced him at NCAAs.  Ferrari and Welsh should be ahead of Smith.  If Ferrari is the starter than he has beaten Gabe Arnold who Smith split (1-1) with last season plus the Plott win.  Welsh beat Smith 2-0 in the best of three wrestle off for the U23 team.

I agree with you on Ryder.  His biggest accomplishment so far is beating Gabe Arnold to make the U20 team in 2024 and placing 2nd at U 20 worlds and that doesn't really do it for me, but these aren't my tiers.

Sinclair has beaten Macchiavello at Senior Nationals where he placed 2nd.  He also was 1-3 against McEnelly in the U20 trials process this year and 2-2 against Josh Barr in the U20 process in 2024.  He also beat Salazar at the Soldier Salute who was the Big Ten champ at 197 the past two years.  The wins over Macchiavello, McEnelly, Salazar and Barr are probably more impressive than any wins by Allred or Smith over the past 2 years.

[nhs67]

2 hours ago, Huskers20 said:

Would you do a large tier 2 or separate them? 
Personally I'd bump Ferrari to 1 and then combine 2&3. I could see all of those guys taking losses from each other.

That is where we disagree.  Smith and Allred aren't touching McEnelly.  Ergo, they cannot be within one tier of him.  I believe they could both beat anybody in Tier 2, though.  I don't see anybody in Tier 2 losing to anybody in Tier 4.  I could see Smith and Allred losing to anybody in Tier 4, though.  Mind you, they should be favored, but if any of them were to lose to Brenot, etc. I would not be surprised.

To explain blandly, yet more fully:

Tier 1 - Should beat anyone Tier 3 and lower unless a 'fluke' pin, injury, or something else happens (such as getting Carver'd or something of that sorts).  Expect barn burners with Tier 2.

Tier 2 - Should beat anyone Tier 4 and lower unless a 'fluke' pin, injury, or something else happens (such as getting Carver'd or something of that sorts).  Expect barn burners with Tier 1 and Tier 3.

Tier 3 - Should beat anyone Tier 5 and lower unless a 'fluke' pin, injury, or something else happens (such as getting Carver'd or something of that sorts).  Should lose to Tier 1 unless a 'fluke' pin, injury, or something else happens (such as getting Carver'd or something of that sorts).  Expect barn burners with Tier 2 and Tier 4.

Tier 4 - Should beat anyone below Tier 5 unless a 'fluke' pin, injury, or something else happens (such as getting Carver'd or something of that sorts).  Should lose to Tier 1 and Tier 2 unless a 'fluke' pin, injury, or something else happens (such as getting Carver'd or something of that sorts).  Expect barn burners with Tier 3 and Tier 5.

Tier 5 -  Should beat anyone below Tier 6 unless a 'fluke' pin, injury, or something else happens (such as getting Carver'd or something of that sorts).  Should lose to Tier 1 , Tier 2, and Tier 3 unless a 'fluke' pin, injury, or something else happens (such as getting Carver'd or something of that sorts).  Expect barn burners with Tier 4 and Tier 6.

Etc.

I did not do a Tier 6.  Seemed excessive for a three minute drill.

I spent more time on this post than I did the post you're in question of.

Also, as @fishbane does well explaining good reasoning, too.

All these said, one of those 'other' scenarios are that styles make matches.  Much like Sammy Brooks over Myles Martin there is such a thing as 'bad matchups' that should be taken in to consideration (and disregarded).  Also, also - these are mine.  Do yours.  I'd enjoy seeing them.

[Huskers20]

3 hours ago, nhs67 said:

That is where we disagree.  Smith and Allred aren't touching McEnelly.  Ergo, they cannot be within one tier of him.  I believe they could both beat anybody in Tier 2, though.  I don't see anybody in Tier 2 losing to anybody in Tier 4.  I could see Smith and Allred losing to anybody in Tier 4, though.  Mind you, they should be favored, but if any of them were to lose to Brenot, etc. I would not be surprised.

To explain blandly, yet more fully:

Tier 1 - Should beat anyone Tier 3 and lower unless a 'fluke' pin, injury, or something else happens (such as getting Carver'd or something of that sorts).  Expect barn burners with Tier 2.

Tier 2 - Should beat anyone Tier 4 and lower unless a 'fluke' pin, injury, or something else happens (such as getting Carver'd or something of that sorts).  Expect barn burners with Tier 1 and Tier 3.

Tier 3 - Should beat anyone Tier 5 and lower unless a 'fluke' pin, injury, or something else happens (such as getting Carver'd or something of that sorts).  Should lose to Tier 1 unless a 'fluke' pin, injury, or something else happens (such as getting Carver'd or something of that sorts).  Expect barn burners with Tier 2 and Tier 4.

Tier 4 - Should beat anyone below Tier 5 unless a 'fluke' pin, injury, or something else happens (such as getting Carver'd or something of that sorts).  Should lose to Tier 1 and Tier 2 unless a 'fluke' pin, injury, or something else happens (such as getting Carver'd or something of that sorts).  Expect barn burners with Tier 3 and Tier 5.

Tier 5 -  Should beat anyone below Tier 6 unless a 'fluke' pin, injury, or something else happens (such as getting Carver'd or something of that sorts).  Should lose to Tier 1 , Tier 2, and Tier 3 unless a 'fluke' pin, injury, or something else happens (such as getting Carver'd or something of that sorts).  Expect barn burners with Tier 4 and Tier 6.

Etc.

I did not do a Tier 6.  Seemed excessive for a three minute drill.

I spent more time on this post than I did the post you're in question of.

Also, as @fishbane does well explaining good reasoning, too.

All these said, one of those 'other' scenarios are that styles make matches.  Much like Sammy Brooks over Myles Martin there is such a thing as 'bad matchups' that should be taken in to consideration (and disregarded).  Also, also - these are mine.  Do yours.  I'd enjoy seeing them.

 

1 - McEnelly, Ferrari
2 - Ryder, Sinclair, Welsh, Allred, Smith
3 - Brenot, Fishback, Mantanona, Thompson
4 - Ayzerov, Cartegena-Walsh, Dean, Goin, Soldano?

I never really thought of tier separation like you outlined. I tend to go with more who I think has comparable resumes & ceilings. 
 

1- Max & Ferrari have very similar resumes when it comes to similar opponents. (Plott & Carter)

2- Silas has the best win of anyone in this group (Max Dean), but he has lost to Smith & Plott & Max. Smith was 2-0 vs Silas last year but still steps below tier 1 imo. Ryder doesn't have much of a college folk style resume so projecting. Sinclair's got a win over Salazar who I think would fall into this tier as well. He also lost to Andy Snith last year. Welsh made the national finals as a true freshman but without marque wins so having him higher would be projecting imo. No disagreements below this. 

[nhs67]

38 minutes ago, Huskers20 said:

 

 

1 - McEnelly, Ferrari
2 - Ryder, Sinclair, Welsh, Allred, Smith
3 - Brenot, Fishback, Mantanona, Thompson
4 - Ayzerov, Cartegena-Walsh, Dean, Goin, Soldano?

I never really thought of tier separation like you outlined. I tend to go with more who I think has comparable resumes & ceilings. 
 

1- Max & Ferrari have very similar resumes when it comes to similar opponents. (Plott & Carter)

2- Silas has the best win of anyone in this group (Max Dean), but he has lost to Smith & Plott & Max. Smith was 2-0 vs Silas last year but still steps below tier 1 imo. Ryder doesn't have much of a college folk style resume so projecting. Sinclair's got a win over Salazar who I think would fall into this tier as well. He also lost to Andy Snith last year. Welsh made the national finals as a true freshman but without marque wins so having him higher would be projecting imo. No disagreements below this. 

Appreciate the effort and explanations.  It's a good tier list.