Is it a Genocide?

[scourge165]

5 hours ago, Caveira said:

#1.  We’re not killing anyone.  Point of clarification there. 
 

second.  Are they committing genocide?   If so they’re killing way more terrorists than future ones that can be born.  I mean.  Work on your terms.  Or math. 
 

if it’s not genocide.  Are they just letting Hamas sit back and procreate little future terror babies.  Which is it ?  
 

given they (Hamas) want to kill all the Jews and remove them from earth…. Which strategy is better for Israel?

#1- So by YOUR logic, Ukraine-Russia is a proxy War, but Israel... who has more US Tech and Weapons isn't us?

Cool. Fine. 

5 hours ago, Caveira said:

second.  Are they committing genocide?

Yes. At this point...yes.

5 hours ago, Caveira said:

If so they’re killing way more terrorists than future ones that can be born.  I mean.  Work on your terms.  Or math. 

How in the hell do you come to this conclusion?

"If so they're killing way more terrorists than future ones that can be born." No. Not if so. 

Work on YOUR terms... and no Math was done here either. "More" is not a

 

5 hours ago, Caveira said:

if it’s not genocide.  Are they just letting Hamas sit back and procreate little future terror babies.  Which is it ?

Are you having a stroke?

Yeah, it's not an either or here sport. I'm not sure why you believe that...my GUESS would mean you have an incomplete understanding of the word genocide, but this is a truly stupid comment. 

 

So it's either a Genocide OR "they" just "sit back and procreate little future terror babies."

 

Yup. That... it really in line with the point I've been making. Are you really too stupid to follow what was a very simple and straight forward point?

 

 

Also, it's amazing how you picked...ONE fn Sentence that you clearly lacked the mental capacity to understand and narrowed in on that as though you decided you were going to argue and then just make the argument up as you go along. 

Edited May 30 by scourge165

[uncle bernard]

11 hours ago, Caveira said:

#1.  We’re not killing anyone.  Point of clarification there. 
 

second.  Are they committing genocide?   If so they’re killing way more terrorists than future ones that can be born.  I mean.  Work on your terms.  Or math. 
 

if it’s not genocide.  Are they just letting Hamas sit back and procreate little future terror babies.  Which is it ?  
 

given they (Hamas) want to kill all the Jews and remove them from earth…. Which strategy is better for Israel?

This is explicitly an argument for genocide.

[uncle bernard]

16 hours ago, Scouts Honor said:

history has not born this out tho

they gave gaza control, then gave gaza back completely...

so no 

you know not what you speak of

They never fully gave Gaza back. They kept it under siege the entire time, which severely limited any sort of possible development, while also continuing to bomb it the entire time. They are very open about this. They refer to it as keeping the Palestinians "on a diet."

[Scouts Honor]

on a diet

[Caveira]

5 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

This is explicitly an argument for genocide.

No. I’m doing what y’all do.  Twisting words

Either they’re killing everyone and they will not be birthing future terrorists…. Well because.    Or they’re birthing tons of future terrorists.  
 

you really can’t have both.   

[Scouts Honor]

under siege the entire time

i wonder why

Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel - Wikipedia

[uncle bernard]

12 hours ago, scourge165 said:

How do you propose that when...they don't seem to want that? They overwhelmingly support Hamas and Hamas has no interest in any peaceful process or "path to statehood," that still includes Israel in the region. 

They've been given numerous chances to just...form a Government, they were growing. They had more hospitals per capita than almost any other Country in that Region. They had an obesity problem(so the open air prison doesn't really reasonate...at least if we're talking pre Oct 7th).  

 

When you choose leaders(and then support those leaders) who's main priority is to go to War until their enemy ceases to exist, there's really not a pathway to Statehood. 

 

That said...it IS starting to look like a genocide...and it's tragic watching children die. You don't have to have a strong political leaning one way or the other to see that. But I don't know what Israel is supposed to do. I know people say..."just stop." And they do and they have...and when they do they're just attacked again. 

 

I used to think the 'when they start loving their children more than they hate us,' line was...just being cruel. I don't think it is. 

 

 

First, thank you for being far more reasonable than the rest of the crew on here. Reasoned, intelligent thoughts are very welcome on this topic. 

Where I'd push back is that you can't separate the current support of Hamas from the bad faith dealings of Israel following Oslo. People support Hamas because they don't believe the peace process is possible. When it looked possible, they supported it.

That's why I think we have such an important role to play. In order for this to be solved in a way that doesn't include genocide and/or ethnic cleansing, Israel needs to "be the bigger person" in order to reestablish trust in a peace process. That means not responding with overwhelming force every time Hamas fires rockets. Obviously, they'll never do this on their own accord, which is why we need to be the ones who make them.

This doesn't mean letting Hamas run rampant. They should bolster their defenses along the border to prevent future attacks like 10/7, which was a huge outlier in terms of its success. Without further massive defense failures like that, very few Israelis would ever be in danger from Hamas. 

Bolster the borders around Gaza (and remove the settlements right along the border), start negotiating with the PA, pull back the illegal settlements in the West Bank, and you will weaken Hamas far more than the current bombardment does. It will take time. Hamas will still attempt attacks. But if Israel shows restraint and good faith, people will see there's another way. We saw that in the 90's. It can happen again.

[uncle bernard]

12 minutes ago, Caveira said:

No. I’m doing what y’all do.  Twisting words

Either they’re killing everyone and they will not be birthing future terrorists…. Well because.    Or they’re birthing tons of future terrorists.  
 

you really can’t have both.   

Gibberish.

[Caveira]

Explain.

Option a)  genocide: If they’re all dead…. 

option b) birthing tons of future terrorists…..

 

17 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Gibberish.

[Scouts Honor]

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

First, thank you for being far more reasonable than the rest of the crew on here. Reasoned, intelligent thoughts are very welcome on this topic. 

Where I'd push back is that you can't separate the current support of Hamas from the bad faith dealings of Israel following Oslo. People support Hamas because they don't believe the peace process is possible. When it looked possible, they supported it.

That's why I think we have such an important role to play. In order for this to be solved in a way that doesn't include genocide and/or ethnic cleansing, Israel needs to "be the bigger person" in order to reestablish trust in a peace process. That means not responding with overwhelming force every time Hamas fires rockets. Obviously, they'll never do this on their own accord, which is why we need to be the ones who make them.

This doesn't mean letting Hamas run rampant. They should bolster their defenses along the border to prevent future attacks like 10/7, which was a huge outlier in terms of its success. Without further massive defense failures like that, very few Israelis would ever be in danger from Hamas. 

Bolster the borders around Gaza (and remove the settlements right along the border), start negotiating with the PA, pull back the illegal settlements in the West Bank, and you will weaken Hamas far more than the current bombardment does. It will take time. Hamas will still attempt attacks. But if Israel shows restraint and good faith, people will see there's another way. We saw that in the 90's. It can happen again.

it's amazing. all the evidence we have posted and said these same things many times.

political process won't work when you have this mindset.

see the oslo accords.

see arafat rejecting clinton

 

[Husker_Du]

Discuss

[red viking]

24 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

Discuss

"Founded in 1964, it INITIALLY sought..."

[Scouts Honor]

and still does.

[red viking]

50 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

and still does.

Oh, so now Wikipedia wrong. Convenient. 

[Scouts Honor]

no. just you.

[scourge165]

11 hours ago, Caveira said:

No. I’m doing what y’all do.  Twisting words

Either they’re killing everyone and they will not be birthing future terrorists…. Well because.    Or they’re birthing tons of future terrorists.  

This is...exactly what I thought when I read your last moronic post. 

 

The full understanding of what YOU believe to be a genocide is...they just kill everyone. EVEN operating under THAT logic and saying they're going to kill EVERYONE in Gaza(which I don't think anyone in this thread has said and I certainly haven't)... are you too stupid to understand you still have the West Bank and 1.6 BILLION Muslims in the World? Not to mention, well intended morons from the West with a tenuous understanding of the situation and see the videos of babies with their limbs blown off or other twisted crap.

You don't think THAT would radicalize people?

 

12 hours ago, Caveira said:

you really can’t have both.

Yes...you REALLY can. 

[scourge165]

11 hours ago, Caveira said:

Explain.

Option a)  genocide: If they’re all dead…. 

option b) birthing tons of future terrorists…..

 

Definite Genocide? Because no, it's not "they're all dead." 

By by YOUR definition...I don't think there has EVER been a Genocide. 

Not in WWII with the Jews. Not the Yazidis, not Darfur, not Bosnia or Armenia.... maybe the 3rd Punic War(even then, they weren't all dead... though most and they were displaced. 

 

 

Edited May 31 by scourge165

[Scouts Honor]

if you are a palestinian supporter/grifter

b/c you don't care about lying 

[scourge165]

8 hours ago, red viking said:

"Founded in 1964, it INITIALLY sought..."

 

12 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

First, thank you for being far more reasonable than the rest of the crew on here. Reasoned, intelligent thoughts are very welcome on this topic. 

1-Where I'd push back is that you can't separate the current support of Hamas from the bad faith dealings of Israel following Oslo. People support Hamas because they don't believe the peace process is possible. When it looked possible, they supported it.

2-That's why I think we have such an important role to play. In order for this to be solved in a way that doesn't include genocide and/or ethnic cleansing, 3-Israel needs to "be the bigger person" in order to reestablish trust in a peace process. That means not responding with overwhelming force every time Hamas fires rockets. Obviously, they'll never do this on their own accord, which is why we need to be the ones who make them.

4-This doesn't mean letting Hamas run rampant. They should bolster their defenses along the border to prevent future attacks like 10/7, which was a huge outlier in terms of its success. Without further massive defense failures like that, very few Israelis would ever be in danger from Hamas. 

Bolster the borders around Gaza (and remove the settlements right along the border), start negotiating with the PA, pull back the illegal settlements in the West Bank, and you will weaken Hamas far more than the current bombardment does. It will take time. Hamas will still attempt attacks. But if Israel shows restraint and good faith, people will see there's another way. We saw that in the 90's. It can happen again.

I'll address each point in order they're in bold.

1-Did Israel act in bad faith or did Arafat first?

For starters, after these agreements, Arafat gave a speech inferring this was a temporary cease fire, not any sort of meaningful peace or...basically just a pause to a feud that's been going on for....well thousands of years, but just in it's current setting over 60 years. 

But sure, the Israelis did act in bad faith by not releasing the agreed upon Palestinians, expanding settlements...in other cases they were VERY slow in pulling back on settlements...and finally, Netanyahu said he'd "de facto ended the Oslo Accords." 

I could go into the reasons to not believe Arafat or maybe more importantly, the number of Palestinians who were OUTRAGED that they'd even publicly recognize or speak about peace as their ONLY goal is to eliminate the State of Israel.

 

2- First, quick side note, when you say WE play such an important role, I'd say the biggest obstacle is Iran. You look back and the Peace Treaties that we've signed that have been of any consequence, Camp David...Oslo...you've gotten Egypt, Jordan...the Abraham Accords were...actually counter productive as they excluded the Palestinians and angered them, but it was....something at least. You got more Nations starting to normalize trade. We need the Saudis to do the same(for what their word is worth). 

3-How many time though? How long do you just sit there when your neighbor KEEPS attacking and...if there is ANY breakdown in security, they are willing to die to kill as many Jews as possible?

And this isn't an outlier, this is the vast majority of Palestinians want the State of Israel gone. I don't see Peace until Iran is taken back by it's people. The Palestinians frankly... need to lose all hope. And they haven't, they've been raised to fight the Jews. The Israelis have been raised to DEFEND Israel. There's a difference. 

 

In any event, there's such a distrust between the two sides, I don't believe Arafat acted in good faith and...you're objectively right, Israel did as well following the accords. 

 

4-A failure in defense...but while this may be a crude analogy, it's like keeping an aggressive snake in a cage. If the top is loose in the least...and it can get out and attack and it will. 

So sure, it was a rare failure on Israel's behalf...it was NOT a rare attempt on behalf of Hamas. 

 

But this then brings us to the "Open Air Prison" people claim Palestine was subjected to. They weren't. It's absurd. Israel pulled out, gave them the opportunity to build a Government, a state...and the money just POURED in. I believe it was 33K dollars a year PER capita in Aid. Palestine(and when I say Palestine here in this context, I AM referring to Gaza...which isn't accurate, but to be clear here) had ALL the resources they needed...but because Israel had a closed border, it was a Prison? Well...Egypt did as well. 

 

We're repeatedly tried to hand over security of Gaza to Egypt. Israel doesn't WANT to be responsible as it's a no-win situation for them. 

But even after Egypt was offered to have their CRUSHING and MASSIVE debt forgiven...they still said no. Why? Because as Egyptian officials put it, "we don't want to end up like the PA, thrown from the rooftops of buildings. 

 

5-I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be condescending, but to me this reads like you're putting your child in a room with all it's toys, giving them just...almost endless resources and doing the... permissive parenting. 

Just accepting that Hamas will continue to try and plot terrorist attacks and again, seek to destroy the State of Israel. 

 

The difference is...if you do that with a child, you get an annoyed and spoiled child. 

When you do this with a terrorist organization, you're... playing with lives. 

 

I'd also argue this is LARGELY what Israel has done for decades. They've been FAR more restrained than the US would have been... than any other Country would have been. 

You're holding Israel to an incredibly high standard. 

 

 

I'm generally pretty opposed to the CIA getting involved in regime change, but if EVER there was a case for it...it'd be Iran. That is the head of the snake...IMO. Another place would be Russia, but that's not as easy. 

 

 

-Mostly, I just don't believe that would work. I think every period of peace is just Hamas planning it's next attack. 

I ALSO look at how far Israel has gone and I can say I think...THIS is too far(which for some reason is too much for @Caveirato wrap his head around as he thinks Genocide means killing every single person). 

 

Also, did Israel not do pretty much JUST what you're suggesting when they pulled out of Gaza in 2005, removed Settlements and left Gaza to be self-Governed? That led to the election of Hamas.

 

This is about Islamic Fundamentalism. 

If you could revive the "White Revolution" in Iran...get rid of that oppressive, regressive, violent and insane theocratic rule and hand the power back to the people, there'd be no greater catalyst to a peaceful resolution. 

[scourge165]

40 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

if you are a palestinian supporter/grifter

b/c you don't care about lying 

What are you even trying to say here?

 

Who is "grifting" here? Who is benefitting financially? 

You don't know..."b/c you don't care about lying," or just mindlessly repeating what others have said and then passing that off as your own words. 

[JimmySpeaks]

Hamas is 

[Caveira]

13 hours ago, scourge165 said:

1.6 BILLION Muslim

If other Muslim countries cared about Palestinians.  Would they let them into their country as refugees?   I have no idea.  But why do all the Muslim countries around Palestine not accept Palestinian refugees?  

[Offthemat]

22 minutes ago, Caveira said:

But why do all the Muslim countries around Palestine not accept Palestinian refugees?  

Because when they aren’t killing Jews, they are killing Muslims.  They’ve tried it before and they won’t do it again. 

[Scouts Honor]

1 hour ago, Caveira said:

If other Muslim countries cared about Palestinians.  Would they let them into their country as refugees?   I have no idea.  But why do all the Muslim countries around Palestine not accept Palestinian refugees?  

 

[scourge165]

8 hours ago, Caveira said:

If other Muslim countries cared about Palestinians.  Would they let them into their country as refugees?   I have no idea.  But why do all the Muslim countries around Palestine not accept Palestinian refugees?  

Well, this doesn't even begin to address the  moronic argument you made or the point I made, but there are millions of Palestinians living in other Muslim Countries. 

 

 Your inability to answer a SIMPLE question despite approaching this entire conflict with such a moronically simple perspective is almost impressive. 

 

'Err...if it's a genocide, how could you create more extremists.' 

Because you somehow don't know what the term genocide encompasses. 

 

But lets operate under the assumption that they haven't taken a SINGLE Palestinian refugee. How does that change the argument I'VE made? 

Think REAL hard and see if you can come up with a coherent response this time.