Is it a Genocide?

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

I don't support Hamas either. I just explained how I want them to be defeated.

No you didn't.  Because Hamas doesn't want that "peaceful political process" that you are talking about.  You are so so naive.  You missed my inference that Hamas does not want peace.  The money will dry up for their leaders.  How can you be so naive as to not see this?  Any time a peaceful solution is in sight, Hamas will attack Israel in such a way that Israel feels they need to respond.  This is why 10/7 happened.

[uncle bernard]

49 minutes ago, mspart said:

I agree that the Gazans cannot simply vote them out.   But a ruler only has power as long as those ruled over give that power.   The power ulitmately rest with the people.  

There is no doubt in my mind that if Hamas were eliminated and the Gazans could vote again, they would vote for whoever said they would get rid of Israel.   It is how they have been educated for the last several generations. 

mspart

Half this country supported turning Iraq to rubble as revenge for 9/11...and Iraq didn't even do 9/11! Gazans have experienced 9/11 every year for the last 70 years. 

If you stop murdering civilians and give people rights, they will deradicalize. Right now, their only experience of Israel is as "the people who kill my loved ones."

[Scouts Honor]

4 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Hmmm... you don't think this is what Hamas does?

Can Israel let the participants and supporters of 10/7 go unpunished?

What do you suggest for them to do to eliminate Hamas?

lie back and feel the freedom of palestine 

[uncle bernard]

1 minute ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

No you didn't.  Because Hamas doesn't want that "peaceful political process" that you are talking about.  You are so so naive.  You missed my inference that Hamas does not want peace.  The money will dry up for their leaders.  How can you be so naive as to not see this?  Any time a peaceful solution is in sight, Hamas will attack Israel in such a way that Israel feels they need to respond.  This is why 10/7 happened.

Again, you correctly see my point without realizing it. 

We can't control Hamas. They are a terror group and death cult. We can control Israel. We can prevent Israel from perpetuating the system that feeds Hamas. 

Here's a concrete example for you to consider:

Hamas does not control the Palestinian West Bank. The PA does and the PA is not a terror group. They are secular and interested in peace. Israel could empower the PA by dealing with them fairly in the West Bank, showing Gazans that there is a legitimate path to peace through diplomacy. Instead, Israel continues to steal Palestinian land in the West Bank through illegal settlements. They continue to terrorize Palestinian neighborhoods with police brutality. By doing this, they affirm Palestinians' belief that there is no path to peace through diplomacy. Military action is the only possible path to freedom, no matter how unlikely, no matter how bloody. That's how Hamas recruits.

This isn't speculation. We've seen this born out in history.

The height of the Palestinian peace-through-diplomacy movement peaked at the Oslo Accords. At that time, there was tremendous optimism about a political solution that achieved freedom for Palestine. The PLO (ancestor of the PA) was far, far more popular than the militant resistant groups.

So, what happened? Israel didn't follow through on the agreed plans. They did not withdraw their military from the West Bank. Israeli extremists carried out a terror attack - The Cave of the Patriarchs Massacre - which was followed by suicide bombings from Hamas in response. Israeli leader of the Oslo talks, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, was assassinated by far-right Israeli extremists. Israel reneged on most of the deal conditions and the fundamental conditions of Palestine did not change despite the treaty. Following this, military resistance grew in popularity, culminating in Hamas' victory over the PA in the elections of 2006 with a minority of the vote.

So ask yourself, if you were a Palestinian who spent decades advocating for diplomacy and peace, only to see the deal be completely unraveled by Israel after they agreed to it, why would you continue to think peace talks are a reasonable path forward? At every step, Israel has shown it is not willing to acknowledge a Palestinian state through diplomatic processes.

But WE could change that. We have the power to restrain Israel, so that peace has a chance. Is this "fair?" No, life isn't fair. We don't have influence over Hamas like we do with Israel. We can only work with the tools we have. So they need to be the ones who turn the other cheek. The West can protect them while they take an entirely defensive stance to slowly regain the trust of their neighbors and give new legitimacy to a diplomatic peace process. That means they can't respond to a rocket damaging a sidewalk by levelling an apartment building. They can't respond to Hamas killing 1000 civilians by killing 50,000 civilians themselves. There is no peace in that future.

 

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

14 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Again, you correctly see my point without realizing it. 

We can't control Hamas. They are a terror group and death cult. We can control Israel. We can prevent Israel from perpetuating the system that feeds Hamas. 

Here's a concrete example for you to consider:

Hamas does not control the Palestinian West Bank. The PA does and the PA is not a terror group. They are secular and interested in peace. Israel could empower the PA by dealing with them fairly in the West Bank, showing Gazans that there is a legitimate path to peace through diplomacy. Instead, Israel continues to steal Palestinian land in the West Bank through illegal settlements. They continue to terrorize Palestinian neighborhoods with police brutality. By doing this, they affirm Palestinians' belief that there is no path to peace through diplomacy. Military action is the only possible path to freedom, no matter how unlikely, no matter how bloody. That's how Hamas recruits.

This isn't speculation. We've seen this born out in history.

The height of the Palestinian peace-through-diplomacy movement peaked at the Oslo Accords. At that time, there was tremendous optimism about a political solution that achieved freedom for Palestine. The PLO (ancestor of the PA) was far, far more popular than the militant resistant groups.

So, what happened? Israel didn't follow through on the agreed plans. They did not withdraw their military from the West Bank. Israeli extremists carried out a terror attack - The Cave of the Patriarchs Massacre - which was followed by suicide bombings from Hamas in response. Israeli leader of the Oslo talks, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, was assassinated by far-right Israeli extremists. Israel reneged on most of the deal conditions and the fundamental conditions of Palestine did not change despite the treaty. Following this, military resistance grew in popularity, culminating in Hamas' victory over the PA in the elections of 2006 with a minority of the vote.

So ask yourself, if you were a Palestinian who spent decades advocating for diplomacy and peace, only to see the deal be completely unraveled by Israel after they agreed to it, why would you continue to think peace talks are a reasonable path forward? At every step, Israel has shown it is not willing to acknowledge a Palestinian state through diplomatic processes.

But WE could change that. We have the power to restrain Israel, so that peace has a chance. Is this "fair?" No, life isn't fair. We don't have influence over Hamas like we do with Israel. We can only work with the tools we have. So they need to be the ones who turn the other cheek. The West can protect them while they take an entirely defensive stance to slowly regain the trust of their neighbors and give new legitimacy to a diplomatic peace process. That means they can't respond to a rocket damaging a sidewalk by levelling an apartment building. They can't respond to Hamas killing 1000 civilians by killing 50,000 civilians themselves. There is no peace in that future.

 

 

Bro... I'm not reading that.  

[uncle bernard]

9 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Bro... I'm not reading that.  

read the shortened version then.

Again, you correctly see my point without realizing it. 

We can't control Hamas. They are a terror group and death cult. We can control Israel. We can prevent Israel from perpetuating the system that feeds Hamas. 

Here's a concrete example for you to consider:

Hamas does not control the Palestinian West Bank. The PA does and the PA is not a terror group. They are secular and interested in peace. Israel could empower the PA by dealing with them fairly in the West Bank, showing Gazans that there is a legitimate path to peace through diplomacy. Instead, Israel continues to steal Palestinian land in the West Bank through illegal settlements. They continue to terrorize Palestinian neighborhoods with police brutality. By doing this, they affirm Palestinians' belief that there is no path to peace through diplomacy. Military action is the only possible path to freedom, no matter how unlikely, no matter how bloody. That's how Hamas recruits.

Edited May 29 by uncle bernard

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

23 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

read the shortened version then.

Again, you correctly see my point without realizing it. 

We can't control Hamas. They are a terror group and death cult. We can control Israel. We can prevent Israel from perpetuating the system that feeds Hamas. 

Here's a concrete example for you to consider:

Hamas does not control the Palestinian West Bank. The PA does and the PA is not a terror group. They are secular and interested in peace. Israel could empower the PA by dealing with them fairly in the West Bank, showing Gazans that there is a legitimate path to peace through diplomacy. Instead, Israel continues to steal Palestinian land in the West Bank through illegal settlements. They continue to terrorize Palestinian neighborhoods with police brutality. By doing this, they affirm Palestinians' belief that there is no path to peace through diplomacy. Military action is the only possible path to freedom, no matter how unlikely, no matter how bloody. That's how Hamas recruits.

You are so far gone...

[red viking]

28 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

read the shortened version then.

Again, you correctly see my point without realizing it. 

We can't control Hamas. They are a terror group and death cult. We can control Israel. We can prevent Israel from perpetuating the system that feeds Hamas. 

Here's a concrete example for you to consider:

Hamas does not control the Palestinian West Bank. The PA does and the PA is not a terror group. They are secular and interested in peace. Israel could empower the PA by dealing with them fairly in the West Bank, showing Gazans that there is a legitimate path to peace through diplomacy. Instead, Israel continues to steal Palestinian land in the West Bank through illegal settlements. They continue to terrorize Palestinian neighborhoods with police brutality. By doing this, they affirm Palestinians' belief that there is no path to peace through diplomacy. Military action is the only possible path to freedom, no matter how unlikely, no matter how bloody. That's how Hamas recruits.

I agree 100%. The terrorist organizations love all this genocide, torture and murders by Israel. You can't get a better terrorist recruiting tool than that. I can guarantee that the hatred toward Israel over there is growing right now and that's a huge part of it. 

[Offthemat]

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

The height of the Palestinian peace-through-diplomacy movement peaked at the Oslo Accords.

You should read Bill Clinton’s account of Oslo, and stop supporting the terrorists.  

[Scouts Honor]

2 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Again, you correctly see my point without realizing it. 

We can't control Hamas. They are a terror group and death cult. We can control Israel. We can prevent Israel from perpetuating the system that feeds Hamas. 

Here's a concrete example for you to consider:

Hamas does not control the Palestinian West Bank. The PA does and the PA is not a terror group. They are secular and interested in peace. Israel could empower the PA by dealing with them fairly in the West Bank, showing Gazans that there is a legitimate path to peace through diplomacy. Instead, Israel continues to steal Palestinian land in the West Bank through illegal settlements. They continue to terrorize Palestinian neighborhoods with police brutality. By doing this, they affirm Palestinians' belief that there is no path to peace through diplomacy. Military action is the only possible path to freedom, no matter how unlikely, no matter how bloody. That's how Hamas recruits.

This isn't speculation. We've seen this born out in history.

The height of the Palestinian peace-through-diplomacy movement peaked at the Oslo Accords. At that time, there was tremendous optimism about a political solution that achieved freedom for Palestine. The PLO (ancestor of the PA) was far, far more popular than the militant resistant groups.

So, what happened? Israel didn't follow through on the agreed plans. They did not withdraw their military from the West Bank. Israeli extremists carried out a terror attack - The Cave of the Patriarchs Massacre - which was followed by suicide bombings from Hamas in response. Israeli leader of the Oslo talks, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, was assassinated by far-right Israeli extremists. Israel reneged on most of the deal conditions and the fundamental conditions of Palestine did not change despite the treaty. Following this, military resistance grew in popularity, culminating in Hamas' victory over the PA in the elections of 2006 with a minority of the vote.

So ask yourself, if you were a Palestinian who spent decades advocating for diplomacy and peace, only to see the deal be completely unraveled by Israel after they agreed to it, why would you continue to think peace talks are a reasonable path forward? At every step, Israel has shown it is not willing to acknowledge a Palestinian state through diplomatic processes.

But WE could change that. We have the power to restrain Israel, so that peace has a chance. Is this "fair?" No, life isn't fair. We don't have influence over Hamas like we do with Israel. We can only work with the tools we have. So they need to be the ones who turn the other cheek. The West can protect them while they take an entirely defensive stance to slowly regain the trust of their neighbors and give new legitimacy to a diplomatic peace process. That means they can't respond to a rocket damaging a sidewalk by levelling an apartment building. They can't respond to Hamas killing 1000 civilians by killing 50,000 civilians themselves. There is no peace in that future.

 

 

how many isrealis have to die before hamas realizes this

[Scouts Honor]

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

read the shortened version then.

Again, you correctly see my point without realizing it. 

We can't control Hamas. They are a terror group and death cult. We can control Israel. We can prevent Israel from perpetuating the system that feeds Hamas. 

Here's a concrete example for you to consider:

Hamas does not control the Palestinian West Bank. The PA does and the PA is not a terror group. They are secular and interested in peace. Israel could empower the PA by dealing with them fairly in the West Bank, showing Gazans that there is a legitimate path to peace through diplomacy. Instead, Israel continues to steal Palestinian land in the West Bank through illegal settlements. They continue to terrorize Palestinian neighborhoods with police brutality. By doing this, they affirm Palestinians' belief that there is no path to peace through diplomacy. Military action is the only possible path to freedom, no matter how unlikely, no matter how bloody. That's how Hamas recruits.

history has not born this out tho

they gave gaza control, then gave gaza back completely...

so no 

you know not what you speak of

[El Luchador]

6 hours ago, red viking said:

The lack of logic by the wingers is unreal. Proposing to murder civilians in Gaza because "most" voted for hamas is as bad as saying let's kill all Americans because Trump is evil and the u.s. voted him in. You can't make this craziness up. 

You missed the obvious point. Hamas uses it's citizens as human shield, they are fine with it.  They knowingly vote for and support their use as human shields by their government. 

[Caveira]

50 minutes ago, El Luchador said:

You missed the obvious point. Hamas uses it's citizens as human shield, they are fine with it.  They knowingly vote for and support their use as human shields by their government. 

The resident Hamas supporters will never acknowledge the human shield part of Hamas plan.   This comment will be 100% ignored only to bring up some same point they’ve brought up a zillion times. 

[JimmySpeaks]

7 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Especially crazy considering most *didn't* vote for Hamas. Only like 10%, maybe even less, of the Gazan population has ever voted for Hamas.

0% of the current population voted for Abe Lincoln here in America and we  don’t have slavery 

Edited May 30 by JimmySpeaks

[JimmySpeaks]

5 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Half this country supported turning Iraq to rubble as revenge for 9/11...and Iraq didn't even do 9/11! Gazans have experienced 9/11 every year for the last 70 years. 

If you stop murdering civilians and give people rights, they will deradicalize. Right now, their only experience of Israel is as "the people who kill my loved ones."

And the only experience of Israelis is Hamas pushing from the river to the sea 

[JimmySpeaks]

4 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

read the shortened version then.

Again, you correctly see my point without realizing it. 

We can't control Hamas. They are a terror group and death cult. We can control Israel. We can prevent Israel from perpetuating the system that feeds Hamas. 

Here's a concrete example for you to consider:

Hamas does not control the Palestinian West Bank. The PA does and the PA is not a terror group. They are secular and interested in peace. Israel could empower the PA by dealing with them fairly in the West Bank, showing Gazans that there is a legitimate path to peace through diplomacy. Instead, Israel continues to steal Palestinian land in the West Bank through illegal settlements. They continue to terrorize Palestinian neighborhoods with police brutality. By doing this, they affirm Palestinians' belief that there is no path to peace through diplomacy. Military action is the only possible path to freedom, no matter how unlikely, no matter how bloody. That's how Hamas recruits.

The PA is not a terror group.  Neither is Antifa sooooooo

[Caveira]

Just now, JimmySpeaks said:

0% of the current population voted for Abe Lincoln here in America yet we still don’t have slavery 

But.  90.13% of the votes were for terrorist orgs.   Hamas.    The plfp.  And Al-Aqsa Martyrs'.    
 

resident lefties forget this.   Hamas also won the popular vote by a landslide.

 

3 minutes ago, JimmySpeaks said:

0% of the current population voted for Abe Lincoln here in America yet we still don’t have slavery 

 

[JimmySpeaks]

1 minute ago, Caveira said:

But.  90.13% of the votes were for terrorist orgs.   Hamas.    The plfp.  And Al-Aqsa Martyrs'.    
 

resident lefties forget this.   Hamas also won the popular vote by a landslide.

 

 

My point was how dumb the statement he made he was.  There hasn’t been a vote since Hamas took control but the polls of the people still show most support the terrorists.  

[Caveira]

2 minutes ago, JimmySpeaks said:

My point was how dumb the statement he made he was.  There hasn’t been a vote since Hamas took control but the polls of the people still show most support the terrorists.  

Your comment is fair.  They like to ignore more than 90% voted for terrorists initially too.    They won’t comment on the human shield issues.  The shooting rockets behind hospitals / schools etc.   

[JimmySpeaks]

2 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Your comment is fair.  They like to ignore more than 90% voted for terrorists initially too.    They won’t comment on the human shield issues.  The shooting rockets behind hospitals / schools etc.   

river to the sea was the goal of the terrorist groups no matter who won.  The nobody alive today voted for Hamas argument is a complete joke. Their religious beliefs don’t allow for peace and It will be decades/centuries before it comes close to their agenda being ok with Jews being there.  The human shield thing CANT BE DEFENDED which is why they ignore it.  

[JimmySpeaks]

5 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Again, you correctly see my point without realizing it. 

We can't control Hamas. They are a terror group and death cult. We can control Israel. We can prevent Israel from perpetuating the system that feeds Hamas. 

Here's a concrete example for you to consider:

Hamas does not control the Palestinian West Bank. The PA does and the PA is not a terror group. They are secular and interested in peace. Israel could empower the PA by dealing with them fairly in the West Bank, showing Gazans that there is a legitimate path to peace through diplomacy. Instead, Israel continues to steal Palestinian land in the West Bank through illegal settlements. They continue to terrorize Palestinian neighborhoods with police brutality. By doing this, they affirm Palestinians' belief that there is no path to peace through diplomacy. Military action is the only possible path to freedom, no matter how unlikely, no matter how bloody. That's how Hamas recruits.

This isn't speculation. We've seen this born out in history.

The height of the Palestinian peace-through-diplomacy movement peaked at the Oslo Accords. At that time, there was tremendous optimism about a political solution that achieved freedom for Palestine. The PLO (ancestor of the PA) was far, far more popular than the militant resistant groups.

So, what happened? Israel didn't follow through on the agreed plans. They did not withdraw their military from the West Bank. Israeli extremists carried out a terror attack - The Cave of the Patriarchs Massacre - which was followed by suicide bombings from Hamas in response. Israeli leader of the Oslo talks, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, was assassinated by far-right Israeli extremists. Israel reneged on most of the deal conditions and the fundamental conditions of Palestine did not change despite the treaty. Following this, military resistance grew in popularity, culminating in Hamas' victory over the PA in the elections of 2006 with a minority of the vote.

So ask yourself, if you were a Palestinian who spent decades advocating for diplomacy and peace, only to see the deal be completely unraveled by Israel after they agreed to it, why would you continue to think peace talks are a reasonable path forward? At every step, Israel has shown it is not willing to acknowledge a Palestinian state through diplomatic processes.

But WE could change that. We have the power to restrain Israel, so that peace has a chance. Is this "fair?" No, life isn't fair. We don't have influence over Hamas like we do with Israel. We can only work with the tools we have. So they need to be the ones who turn the other cheek. The West can protect them while they take an entirely defensive stance to slowly regain the trust of their neighbors and give new legitimacy to a diplomatic peace process. That means they can't respond to a rocket damaging a sidewalk by levelling an apartment building. They can't respond to Hamas killing 1000 civilians by killing 50,000 civilians themselves. There is no peace in that future.

 

 

There is Zero chance of gaining their trust.  THEY DONT WANT PEACE. 

[Caveira]

4 minutes ago, JimmySpeaks said:

There is Zero chance of gaining their trust.  THEY DONT WANT PEACE. 

The Palestinian authority supports terrorism.   They pay approx 300 million dollars a year to terrorist families that have attacked Israel.    This accounts for almost 10% of their total budget.    This is sometimes referred to as the “pay for slay” program.    Wonder how much food, medical, or schooling could be improved without paying terrorists….. 

The PA's educational curricula have been criticized for content that glorifies martyrdom and demonizes Israel.

PA officials have made public statements that glorify individuals who have committed attacks against Israelis. 

the PA provides stipends to families of Palestinians who died during attacks on Israelis.

The PA has names streets, schools, and public squares after individuals who have carried out attacks against Israelis.

 

 

 

 

[scourge165]

10 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

So why does Israel keep giving them exactly what they want? If this is true, couldn't they solve this problem by simply not killing thousands of civilians?

The logic of your post is a complete endorsement of what I've been saying all along - the actual way to defeat Hamas is through a peaceful political process that gives the Palestinians a legitimate path to statehood and self-determination. 

How do you propose that when...they don't seem to want that? They overwhelmingly support Hamas and Hamas has no interest in any peaceful process or "path to statehood," that still includes Israel in the region. 

They've been given numerous chances to just...form a Government, they were growing. They had more hospitals per capita than almost any other Country in that Region. They had an obesity problem(so the open air prison doesn't really reasonate...at least if we're talking pre Oct 7th).  

 

When you choose leaders(and then support those leaders) who's main priority is to go to War until their enemy ceases to exist, there's really not a pathway to Statehood. 

 

That said...it IS starting to look like a genocide...and it's tragic watching children die. You don't have to have a strong political leaning one way or the other to see that. But I don't know what Israel is supposed to do. I know people say..."just stop." And they do and they have...and when they do they're just attacked again. 

 

I used to think the 'when they start loving their children more than they hate us,' line was...just being cruel. I don't think it is. 

 

 

 

[scourge165]

5 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

read the shortened version then.

Again, you correctly see my point without realizing it. 

We can't control Hamas. They are a terror group and death cult. We can control Israel. We can prevent Israel from perpetuating the system that feeds Hamas. 

Here's a concrete example for you to consider:

Hamas does not control the Palestinian West Bank. The PA does and the PA is not a terror group. They are secular and interested in peace. Israel could empower the PA by dealing with them fairly in the West Bank, showing Gazans that there is a legitimate path to peace through diplomacy. Instead, Israel continues to steal Palestinian land in the West Bank through illegal settlements. They continue to terrorize Palestinian neighborhoods with police brutality. By doing this, they affirm Palestinians' belief that there is no path to peace through diplomacy. Military action is the only possible path to freedom, no matter how unlikely, no matter how bloody. That's how Hamas recruits.

It is. It lost it's designation for...no other reason than to facilitate yet another round of peace talks that were entered into in poor faith leading to nothing and they just haven't put the designation back on.

They also have a tenuous grip on the West Bank.

 

 

I don't know the way out of it though. I DO know we are creating a LOT more terrorists or...extremists each day. 

 

[Caveira]

3 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

It is. It lost it's designation for...no other reason than to facilitate yet another round of peace talks that were entered into in poor faith leading to nothing and they just haven't put the designation back on.

They also have a tenuous grip on the West Bank.

 

 

I don't know the way out of it though. I DO know we are creating a LOT more terrorists or...extremists each day. 

 

#1.  We’re not killing anyone.  Point of clarification there. 
 

second.  Are they committing genocide?   If so they’re killing way more terrorists than future ones that can be born.  I mean.  Work on your terms.  Or math. 
 

if it’s not genocide.  Are they just letting Hamas sit back and procreate little future terror babies.  Which is it ?  
 

given they (Hamas) want to kill all the Jews and remove them from earth…. Which strategy is better for Israel?