USA struggles at 65kg.. are we alone?

[BruceyB]

With the USA's struggles at 65kg over the past twenty years and the revolving door that is USA reps at the weight, I went back year by year to 2006 and looked found every medalist in Worlds and Olympics.

During this span, 12 wrestlers have represented the red white and blue. 6 of them were 1 time reps. 4 have represented the USA twice. Zain has been the man on three separate occasions, and Metcalf leads the pack with 4 trips to the World Championships.

This made me wonder if other countries have had a similar lack of continuity with their representatives, as well as similar struggles to place at the worlds most competitive weight class. Here are the most to least medals by country since 2006.

1. Russia: 12 total medals from 8 different wrestlers. 4 gold, 2 silver, 6 bronze

2. Japan: 6 medals from 3 different wrestlers. 4 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze

3. India: 6 medals from two different wrestlers. 1 gold, 2 silver, 3 bronze

4. Iran: 5 medals from 3 different wrestlers. 1 gold, 3 silver, 1 bronze

5: Georgia: 5 medals from 2 different wrestlers. 1 gold, 1 silver, 3 bronze

6. Cuba: 5 medals from 2 different wrestlers. 1 silver, 4 bronze

7. Hungary: 3 medals from Muszukajev. 1 gold, 2 bronze

8. Azerbaijan: 3 medals from two different wrestlers. 3 silver

9. Mongolia: 3 medals from two different wrestlers. 3 bronze

10. Turkey: 2 gold medals from Sahin.

11: USA: 1 gold from Zadick, 1 silver from Diakomihalis.

12. Italy: Chamizo 1 gold, 1 bronze / Armenia: 1 gold and 1 bronze.

13: Ukraine, Navruzov, Kazakhstan, Puerto Rico all with 1 silver and 1 bronze each.

14. Poland with 1 silver.

15. Moldova, Kyrgyzstan, and Albania with 1 bronze each.

Some other interesting notes that I discovered during this research include..

No wrestler has won 3 golds at 65kg, and only three have claimed 2. Otuguru for Japan, Romonov for Russia, and Sahin for Turkey.

Only Tushishvili of Georgia, Lopez of Cuba, Punia of India, Romonov, Muszukajev, and Yonemitsu have medaled 3 times at the weight.

Only Tushishvili and Punia have earned four medals with 1 silver and 3 bronze respectively, and no one has 5 medals.

Of the 40 medalists over the past 20 years, exactly 20 of those wrestlers earned just 1 medal at the weight class.

 

I spent far too much time putting this together (I'm sure someone better with excel could have done it much faster than I) and maybe @Wrestleknownothing can create an interesting graphic from this information if it suits his interest. Nevertheless, if you actually take the time to read this, I'd love to for you to share any takeaways you might have from the information, how it pertains to USA wrestling, or just the landscape of 65kg as a whole. 

[BAC]

Nice work brother.  I have no great answers, but I'll offer a theory.  65kg, in general, has one of the highest concentrations of talent, but even more so outside the US, since the average person is smaller outside the US. If you look it up you'll see the US average height/weight is higher than all the countries you listed above, save Poland.  As a result, that's the weight range where a lot of other countries' best wrestlers are, so it's most competitive.  It's concentrated there in the US too, just not to the same extent as other countries.

[BruceyB]

11 minutes ago, BAC said:

Nice work brother.  I have no great answers, but I'll offer a theory.  65kg, in general, has one of the highest concentrations of talent, but even more so outside the US, since the average person is smaller outside the US. If you look it up you'll see the US average height/weight is higher than all the countries you listed above, save Poland.  As a result, that's the weight range where a lot of other countries' best wrestlers are, so it's most competitive.  It's concentrated there in the US too, just not to the same extent as other countries.

I appreciate it. I definitely think, especially in the demographic that is likely to end up in the sport of wrestling, they are going to be undersized for other sports and likely the average wrestler is going to be competing right around 145 pounds.

What also stuck out to me was that when you look at the guys that have competed for the US at this weight and the lack of success. You have 4x NCAA champion and Hodge winner Stieber, 4x NCAA champion Diakomihalis, 3x NCAA champion and 2x Hodge winner Retherford, 2x Champion and Hodge winner Metcalf, and 2x NCAA champion Jordan Oliver.. and those guys combining for 1 total medal at 65kg is just crazy.

And then Sebastian Rivera wins two medals back to back for Puerto Rico and talks about how off and on his training regiment has been. It's interesting. 

[wrestle87]

I think we also have to take into account that is a weight class that CONSTANTLY chews itself up domestically.  

If we had a system which allowed guys to win a shot at two teams instead of having to re-justify themselves every year, we would have a medal, but there are so many guys just beating the sh*t out of each other on the way to a spot, they are far less than spry when it comes time to compete internationally.

My evidence for this is the success that the whole michigan room (and seabass) have had once they extricate themselves from the annual spring meat grinder that is the US Open World Team Trials Gauntlet.

They have a locked up spot and they get to rest and train and peak properly instead of just running the gauntlet over and over again. 

Our system is equitable domestically, but it hamstrings us internationally.

[de4856]

I read somewhere that Metcalf said that he felt good at 65 kg. But I have always wondered what if he had a chance at going 70 kg. He was always a guy who put a ton of pressure on his opponents using his strength and conditioning. I know that when James Green tried 65 he wasn’t the same. And although Metcalf handled the cut better I wonder if he would have been better off at 70. 

[BruceyB]

40 minutes ago, de4856 said:

I read somewhere that Metcalf said that he felt good at 65 kg. But I have always wondered what if he had a chance at going 70 kg. He was always a guy who put a ton of pressure on his opponents using his strength and conditioning. I know that when James Green tried 65 he wasn’t the same. And although Metcalf handled the cut better I wonder if he would have been better off at 70. 

While I agree, he was still the best option for the US at 65kg and couldn't medal.

 

51 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

I think we also have to take into account that is a weight class that CONSTANTLY chews itself up domestically.  

If we had a system which allowed guys to win a shot at two teams instead of having to re-justify themselves every year, we would have a medal, but there are so many guys just beating the sh*t out of each other on the way to a spot, they are far less than spry when it comes time to compete internationally.

My evidence for this is the success that the whole michigan room (and seabass) have had once they extricate themselves from the annual spring meat grinder that is the US Open World Team Trials Gauntlet.

They have a locked up spot and they get to rest and train and peak properly instead of just running the gauntlet over and over again. 

Our system is equitable domestically, but it hamstrings us internationally.

I was thinking about this as I was doing the research. But they have months in between making the world team and the big competition date. And in college they are/were making weight multiple times a week and wrestling consistently for 5 months. 

I wonder if it's more the mental side of how hard it is to make a world team, and then tightening up on the big stage because you don't know if you're going to get back there again. These guys might feel like they have to make the most of the opportunity, and their performance suffers because of it. Especially at 65kg where so few guys get multiple cracks at it.

[wrestle87]

1 hour ago, BruceyB said:

I was thinking about this as I was doing the research. But they have months in between making the world team and the big competition date. And in college they are/were making weight multiple times a week and wrestling consistently for 5 months. 

I wonder if it's more the mental side of how hard it is to make a world team, and then tightening up on the big stage because you don't know if you're going to get back there again. These guys might feel like they have to make the most of the opportunity, and their performance suffers because of it. Especially at 65kg where so few guys get multiple cracks at it.

This is definitely true, but I also think there is a lot to be said for having the freedom from pressure to develop, refine, and hone new technique and gameplans in the space between major competition.  Our wrestlers have very little of that compared to their international competition.  They spend much of their senior careers competing as if it were just an extension of the college schedule and at the college wrestling pace.  Internationally, their competitors plan, pace and prepare for continental qualifiers and worlds as if it were a boxing or MMA event.  Long runway, much better load management, and more free time away from the mental strain.

It also doesn’t help that we have such a folkstyle-adjacent freestyle mindset.  Prepping to beat american freestyle competition is very different from prepping for the styles of the rest of the world.  

Wrestlers who innovate succeed.  Despite complete overhaul of folkstyle techniques 3x over in the past 15 years, we are still really rudimentary in freestyle.  Our par terre has gotten worse since the advent of the push out, and I think Dake and molinaro are the only wrestlers in 20 years who had a reliable chest wrap, head pinch or crotch lift.  I generally root for NLWC guys, but they suuuck in par terre.  They don’t even try.  Cael wasn’t any good there, and his style flows down through the team.  They are wizards on the feet, and liabilities to themselves when attempting any turns.

I bag on the brands a lot for folkstyle stagnation, but Tom’s iconic olympics throw was off an opportunistic leg defense neutral exposure throw.  They have the most complete freestyle knowhow, and are why our 57kg guys have the best par terre of the whole team year in and year out.

[boconnell]

If it was mostly about other countries having better smaller athletes, then we would do worse at 57 and 61.  I think it's a relatively small sample size at a super high elite level and it allows for an outlier like this.

[Gilemard]

I think you have made some mistakes. Iran has won 3 golds at 65/66 kg. Mehdi Taghavi in 2009 & 2011 and Rahman Amouzad in 2022.  

[PortaJohn]

12 hours ago, BAC said:

Nice work brother.  I have no great answers, but I'll offer a theory.  65kg, in general, has one of the highest concentrations of talent, but even more so outside the US, since the average person is smaller outside the US. If you look it up you'll see the US average height/weight is higher than all the countries you listed above, save Poland.  As a result, that's the weight range where a lot of other countries' best wrestlers are, so it's most competitive.  It's concentrated there in the US too, just not to the same extent as other countries.

I believe the Russians and Hungarians are also on average taller.  Don't know about weight but I'd be surprised if we aren't the fattest country.  

[BAC]

2 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

I believe the Russians and Hungarians are also on average taller.  Don't know about weight but I'd be surprised if we aren't the fattest country.  

According to this, they the US average height is just a tiny bit higher than Russia/Hungary. 

[PortaJohn]

4 minutes ago, BAC said:

According to this, they the US average height is just a tiny bit higher than Russia/Hungary. 

Thanks, I think your theory is a solid one.  I've read that the US is tricky depending on influxes of migration potentially bringing the average down.  My theory will sound weird but I wonder if Folk hinders wrestlers around 65kg more so than other weight classes.  

[RetiredFromWrestling]

I would say that folk hinders wrestlers in the lower weight classes more. Stylistically most sports diverge more in the lower weight classes just due to physics.  At heavyweight, there are less scrambles and less freestyle exposures. At heavyweight, in folk style, you are much more likely to give up a TD if you take a bad shot than at the lower weights, so big boys are more strategic naturally. Snyder, Gable etc look very similar in freestyle and folk with the biggest difference being the pushout. It may be a better question to ask why we are successful at 57 kg than why we are unsuccessful at 65. That might just be it is a less competitive weight class, or something else. 

[BruceyB]

3 hours ago, Gilemard said:

I think you have made some mistakes. Iran has won 3 golds at 65/66 kg. Mehdi Taghavi in 2009 & 2011 and Rahman Amouzad in 2022.  

You're correct. When I was moving data Taghavi and his two golds got left out of the medals by country data. Thank you.

[wrestlingfan22]

14 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

I think we also have to take into account that is a weight class that CONSTANTLY chews itself up domestically.  

If we had a system which allowed guys to win a shot at two teams instead of having to re-justify themselves every year, we would have a medal, but there are so many guys just beating the sh*t out of each other on the way to a spot, they are far less than spry when it comes time to compete internationally.

My evidence for this is the success that the whole michigan room (and seabass) have had once they extricate themselves from the annual spring meat grinder that is the US Open World Team Trials Gauntlet.

They have a locked up spot and they get to rest and train and peak properly instead of just running the gauntlet over and over again. 

Our system is equitable domestically, but it hamstrings us internationally.

I will add that since 65 is often the deepest weight at our WTT/OT's there are way more possibilities for upsets with our tournament style of qualification. I could see that leading to more years where the guy who makes it out is the guy who peaked the best that day to wrestle American competition rather than the guy who would best get results internationally. Not saying it is a bad system or that I have a better one, but for 65 specifically, I think that could be where some of our issues lie

[Truzzcat]

I know people are pointing to depth as a problem however I think it could be more of a product of lack of depth until more recently. I believe at u20's the United States has absolutely dominated 74kg and while Jordan and Kyle have held that spot for nearly 15 years, I think that could largely be a result of them being pushed by these younger guys for so long and feeling a need to develop. Our last junior world champ at 65/66kg is bubba Jenkins in 2007. We also do not have a 60/61kg champ dating back to 2002. So, while I would agree we have depth relative to good folkstyle wrestlers I am not sure that is necessarily true about guys with accolades in free.

[wrestlingfan22]

6 minutes ago, Truzzcat said:

I know people are pointing to depth as a problem however I think it could be more of a product of lack of depth until more recently. I believe at u20's the United States has absolutely dominated 74kg and while Jordan and Kyle have held that spot for nearly 15 years, I think that could largely be a result of them being pushed by these younger guys for so long and feeling a need to develop. Our last junior world champ at 65/66kg is bubba Jenkins in 2007. We also do not have a 60/61kg champ dating back to 2002. So, while I would agree we have depth relative to good folkstyle wrestlers I am not sure that is necessarily true about guys with accolades in free.

Yes, I am talking about depth/parity in regards to our guys in a domestic context. Parity is probably a better term than depth, as there haven't been the JB/Dake/Taylor/Snyder type stalwarts who are a level above the rest of the weight class

[boconnell]

It's a small sample size.  One great wrestler in a weight or one fewer great wrestler in a weight completely changes analysis like this.  If JB is a couple of inches shorter we are asking why the USA is so great at 65 KG.  It's too small of a sample size to reach some of the conclusions we are trying to reach.

[BruceyB]

1 hour ago, boconnell said:

It's a small sample size.  One great wrestler in a weight or one fewer great wrestler in a weight completely changes analysis like this.  If JB is a couple of inches shorter we are asking why the USA is so great at 65 KG.  It's too small of a sample size to reach some of the conclusions we are trying to reach.

I have to push back on that a bit. As mentioned in the original post, no one in the last 20 years have won 3 golds at 65, and only three wrestlers have won 2. Unlike 74kg where Tsargush won 3 titles, Burroughs won 6, and Sidakov has won four and would like have more if it weren't for the Russian ban. That's three consecutive dynasties that have dominated 74kg, where no one has been able to accomplish such a feat at 65kg. It's no guarantee his skill set at 74kg is as effective against lighter, quicker wrestlers at 65kg.

[boconnell]

1 hour ago, BruceyB said:

I have to push back on that a bit. As mentioned in the original post, no one in the last 20 years have won 3 golds at 65, and only three wrestlers have won 2. Unlike 74kg where Tsargush won 3 titles, Burroughs won 6, and Sidakov has won four and would like have more if it weren't for the Russian ban. That's three consecutive dynasties that have dominated 74kg, where no one has been able to accomplish such a feat at 65kg. It's no guarantee his skill set at 74kg is as effective against lighter, quicker wrestlers at 65kg.

I think it's a guarantee that great 76 KG guys would be great at 65 KG if they were naturally smaller.  There is no significant difference in the wrestling.  We aren't talking about heavyweights and lightweights.  These guys do the same stuff.  

We're talking about a few dozen medalists in each weight class over 20 years.  It's not a long shot for a few guys in one weight to just be better at wrestling than anybody was in the other weight.  At the elite level it's a tiny world with very few guys.  Like I said, 1 guy being a different size changes the entire dynamic of how these stats look.  

Edited 13 hours ago by boconnell

[BruceyB]

47 minutes ago, boconnell said:

I think it's a guarantee that great 76 KG guys would be great at 65 KG if they were naturally smaller.  There is no significant difference in the wrestling.  We aren't talking about heavyweights and lightweights.  These guys do the same stuff.  

We're talking about a few dozen medalists in each weight class over 20 years.  It's not a long shot for a few guys in one weight to just be better at wrestling than anybody was in the other weight.  At the elite level it's a tiny world with very few guys.  Like I said, 1 guy being a different size changes the entire dynamic of how these stats look.  

I understand your point, but you really think that there just haven't happened to be any generational talents at 65kg (generally considered the toughest weight) in the last twenty years, but 74kg has had 3 consecutive wrestlers in Tsargush, Burroughs, and Sidakov that have locked down the weight for the last 15 years? The odds of that just don't seem likely to me. I tend to believe there is a reason that the podiums 74, 86, 97, and 125 have more familiar faces each year than the three lightest weights.

[MPhillips]

24 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

The odds of that just don't seem likely to me.

Not interested in debating, but what might the odds be?

[GrandOlm]

The only nations or regions that can churn out elite wrestlers across the weight spectrum (light, middle heavy) are the US, Mazandaran, and Dagestan/Ossetia. So everyone else has a problem, somewhere (or everywhere). 

I think Arsan Fadzaev was an example of a dominant wrestler from this weight range historically. It's probably still true that average man in high level wrestling regions, when in shape, is somewhere around 70ish kg. This lends itself to 65 kg for competition purposes.