Hodge Voting Is Open

[1032004]

  On 3/27/2025 at 12:28 AM, okokzach said:

Well I thought the implication was that people were ducking him. If anyone ducked him to go to 174, they royally screwed up

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Well pretty sure Levi Haines did

[okokzach]

  On 3/27/2025 at 12:30 AM, 1032004 said:

Well pretty sure Levi Haines did

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Haha maybe. Or maybe he took too much juice lol

[Offthemat]

  On 3/26/2025 at 11:18 PM, scourge165 said:

So I voted for Starocci...but I also voted for Wyatt. 

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I only got one vote. 

[scourge165]

  On 3/27/2025 at 2:43 AM, Offthemat said:

I only got one vote. 

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Use another e-mail.

[scourge165]

  On 3/27/2025 at 12:11 AM, 1032004 said:

But you don’t actually think the qualify of completion is comparable do you?  I know it’s not his fault (honestly him being there could be part of the reason why O’Toole and/or Hamiti bumped up), but Hendrickson’s competition blows his out of the water.

Mesenbrink didn’t wrestle anyone that had been in a national final prior to this year, and Caliendo and Amine are the only prior AA’s he wrestled (with Minto being the only additional one this year), and he had a total of 3 decisions against them.

Hendrickson had to beat 2 champions, a prior finalist, a prior AA (got 6 team points), plus 2 additional guys that earned AA this year (pinning one of them twice and teching the other).

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I just thought Mesenbrink was more dominant from start to finish. He tech falled the #2 ranked Wrestler. A lot of guys only goal was to slow him down. HWT has more cupcakes in it vs the B1G at 165...so...there, that's it. That's my reason. 

Hendrickson had a much better tournament. And Shultz, like most Greco guys...just regressed and kept on regressing in Folkstyle. 

I'm not compelling by the argument he had a total of 3 decisions against Amine and Caliendo. Guys wrestled him to try and slow down the match. 

Hendrickson had the biggest upset...maybe of all-time. He had a great match vs Gable. Mesenbrink was the clear and dominant #1 from start to finish. 

[1032004]

  On 3/27/2025 at 7:01 AM, scourge165 said:

I just thought Mesenbrink was more dominant from start to finish. He tech falled the #2 ranked Wrestler. A lot of guys only goal was to slow him down. HWT has more cupcakes in it vs the B1G at 165...so...there, that's it. That's my reason. 

Hendrickson had a much better tournament. And Shultz, like most Greco guys...just regressed and kept on regressing in Folkstyle. 

I'm not compelling by the argument he had a total of 3 decisions against Amine and Caliendo. Guys wrestled him to try and slow down the match. 

Hendrickson had the biggest upset...maybe of all-time. He had a great match vs Gable. Mesenbrink was the clear and dominant #1 from start to finish. 

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Even if you think Mesenbrink was more dominant (I’d disagree of course), it’s not by much, and that’s just one of the criteria.  Hendrickson’s quality of competition was far superior.  Schultz took third, and that was his third best win, yet he has a better resume than anyone Mesenbrink beat.  Mesenbrink’s “B1G schedule” included Maryland’s starter that was 2-16, and Michigan State’s that was 9-14, plus non conference duals with traditional powers like Drexel and American.  The only NQ’s from the B1G that he wrestled prior to conferences were Caliendo, Mantanona, and Scoles.  And he only wrestled 2 other NQ’s in total before conferences.  Hendrickson beat 5 NQ’s (by tech, first period pin or injury default) at CKLV alone.

But, I will say it’s kinda cool for him that he received multiple forfeits from teams that had guys at his weight, and basically even got one from Ohio State in the B1G tournament, which is evidence of his dominance.

Edited Thursday at 12:00 PM by 1032004

[Gene Mills Fan]

I think Burroughs said he was voting for Mitchell, but that was during the 165  prior to the HWT match.

[juniorvarsity]

Carter has wins over 6 of the 2025 AA's. The only one he did not wrestle this year was Foca. That seems unique, but maybe it isn't. 3 were major decisions or more(he beat Jaxon Smith twice - tech and major but only counting for 1 of the 3).

I voted for Carter.

[Ragu]

My order of the top 3 is MM, Wyatt, and then Carter. Carter is a 5xer and that’s awesome, will never be done again. But his style doesn’t excite me. Wyatt looked like the Hulk all year and proved his world beater status when he beat the world(Olympic) champ. Unreal. Hard to argue but…MM was on another level. The weight class was skimpy because of him. And he dogged the #2 every chance he got. Got closer every time yes but was it ever in doubt? I thought going in Gable might lose to Wyatt but never did I think that MM would lose to anyone at that weight

[ionel]

  On 3/27/2025 at 2:21 PM, Ragu said:

 The weight class was skimpy because of him. 

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how so?

[Ragu]

  On 3/27/2025 at 2:28 PM, ionel said:

how so?

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I guarantee guys actively avoided this weight

[ionel]

  On 3/27/2025 at 2:31 PM, Ragu said:

I guarantee guys actively avoided this weight

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Who that mattered?

[Ragu]

  On 3/27/2025 at 2:33 PM, ionel said:

Who that mattered?

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I guess. But to add to my point and idk if it even matters. But MM is a better wrestler overall than the other 2 guys imo. Hodge voting is too much math involved. First point of emphasis on voting should be eye test

[ionel]

  On 3/27/2025 at 2:38 PM, Ragu said:

I guess. But to add to my point and idk if it even matters. But MM is a better wrestler overall than the other 2 guys imo. Hodge voting is too much math involved. First point of emphasis on voting should be eye test

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Well it's not a better wrestler award so ...

[BAC]

IMO, Wyatt's deserving of MOW for NCAAs, but Carter has the better case for the Hodge.  Sadly, we're going to get that backwards.

For MOW, you're supposed to give it to the guy who had the best tournament, regardless of who's the best wrestler overall.  Carter beat a defending champ, but at this specific tournament, Wyatt was the man, knocking off the defending champ in the semis AND upsetting the 2x champ and Olympic champ in the finals.  No one had a better tournament run than Wyatt.  Yet Carter got MOW. 

But for the Hodge, you're supposed to give it to the best overall wrestler.  The stated criteria vary, but they're guidelines all getting at the same thing:  the best guy.  No question that's Carter.  Wyatt had a great year too, but his amazing Saturday night aside, I don't think Wyatt's even the best heavyweight, let alone the best wrestler.  If they wrestled best of 3, most people (including me) would pick Gable, despite Wyatt winning that first one, after seeing how Wyatt got big-brothered for 9/10ths of the match until he hero'd out a TD at the end.  It was just his night.  

As for Carter, his bonus rate is higher than Wyatt, but that's not the best argument. More to the point, he's the total package, and just straight-up unbeatable.  He hasn't lost since 2021.  Yeah, he's gone to OT, but who cares? Since his first college match, he's 20-0 in matches decided by 2 points or less, 7-0 in OT matches. He's dominant even when he *isn't* winning by bonus points:  That is, even when the margin of victory is small, it's seldom in question.  I doubt the losing wrestler in a close loss ever feels like he "almost beat" Carter. Carter's defense, intelligence, mental strength, ability to escape and ability to ride are all just too much for anyone to beat, even when Carter struggles to score himself.

I get why casual fans are voting for Wyatt.  He's a HWT, and Hodge voters *love* heavyweight... just like in boxing and WWE, the lower weights are always secondary to HWT.  Moreover... he beat Gable!  Plus he's a military guy, AND he came running out with a "Jesus" shirt, AND he came running out with an American flag!  He's an American Hero!  He pointed at the Pres when he won, who pointed back! Captain America! 

Woooo! 

Okay fine, give him MOW, he earned it.  But for a thinking wrestling fan, for someone who understands and appreciates what Carter's doing out there, I really don't see how there's any serious question that Carter is the superior wrestler overall and the right choice for Hodge.

 

[BarSeries]

  On 3/27/2025 at 3:58 PM, BAC said:

Okay fine, give him MOW, he earned it.

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What? NCAA has takesies backsies?

[BAC]

  On 3/27/2025 at 4:15 PM, BarSeries said:

What? NCAA has takesies backsies?

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LOL they should!  The whole point of a OW award is to reward the guy with the best tournament -- and my Hodge opinion aside, Wyatt wrestled as monster a NCAA tournament as anyone's ever wrestled. I'm guessing many coaches cast their vote before the HWT match.  Wouldn't be the first time.

[okokzach]

  On 3/27/2025 at 4:52 PM, BAC said:

LOL they should!  The whole point of a OW award is to reward the guy with the best tournament -- and my Hodge opinion aside, Wyatt wrestled as monster a NCAA tournament as anyone's ever wrestled. I'm guessing many coaches cast their vote before the HWT match.  Wouldn't be the first time.

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I'm not arguing, but why would it even be possible to cast a vote before the tournament has concluded? 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

  On 3/27/2025 at 4:52 PM, BAC said:

LOL they should!  The whole point of a OW award is to reward the guy with the best tournament -- and my Hodge opinion aside, Wyatt wrestled as monster a NCAA tournament as anyone's ever wrestled. I'm guessing many coaches cast their vote before the HWT match.  Wouldn't be the first time.

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The whole point of the Hodge is for best overall season, not lifetime achievement.

[jmoney]

wow starocci is gaining on wyatt!

[BAC]

  On 3/27/2025 at 5:10 PM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

The whole point of the Hodge is for best overall season, not lifetime achievement.

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I keep hearing that. Yeah, it isn't "lifetime achievement," but we're not required to put blinders on, either. 

It isn't like NCAA seeding. WIN says "Criteria for the Hodge includes a wrestler’s record, dominance/bonus-point percentage, quality of competition and sportsmanship." (here) Those are guideline criteria to identify the best, most dominant guy, but we're allowed to look beyond the single-season stats and use our brains to figure out who that is. There's never been a single Hodge winner, including last season (here), where the writeup didn't include a discussion of the wrestler's history prior to that season, to help illustrate why he's the best in the current season.

So in Carter's case, it isn't an award for getting 5 titles.  But we're allowed to consider the fact that he's won 5 straight titles, and hasn't lost in over 4 years, to inform our understanding of exactly how good he is, when comparing him against other undefeated guys with similar bonus point percentages.

Consider Gable, for example. If he had won, he'd be the Hodge favorite. But would he still have been the favorite if he were a new-on-the-scene freshman?  I doubt it. Gable is on the top of everyone's P4P list since we know he's a 2x champ and an Olympic champion, and possibly the all-time HWT GOAT.  Those facts inform our understanding of who is the "best" among a group of wrestlers who put up similar stats. 

In short, we are allowed to consider Carter's historical dominance to understand and contextualize his present-season dominance.  We don't have to check our brains into the luggage compartment before casting our votes. 

Edited Thursday at 06:24 PM by BAC

[okokzach]

  On 3/27/2025 at 6:22 PM, BAC said:

I keep hearing that. Yeah, it isn't "lifetime achievement," but we're not required to put blinders on, either. 

It isn't like NCAA seeding. WIN says "Criteria for the Hodge includes a wrestler’s record, dominance/bonus-point percentage, quality of competition and sportsmanship." (here) Those are guideline criteria to identify the best, most dominant guy, but we're allowed to look beyond the single-season stats and use our brains to figure out who that is. There's never been a single Hodge winner, including last season (here), where the writeup didn't include a discussion of the wrestler's history prior to that season, to help illustrate why he's the best in the current season.

So in Carter's case, it isn't an award for getting 5 titles.  But we're allowed to consider the fact that he's won 5 straight titles, and hasn't lost in over 4 years, to inform our understanding of exactly how good he is, when comparing him against other undefeated guys with similar bonus point percentages.

Consider Gable, for example. If he had won, he'd be the Hodge favorite. But would he still have been the favorite if he were a new-on-the-scene freshman?  I doubt it. Gable is on the top of everyone's P4P list since we know he's a 2x champ and an Olympic champion, and possibly the all-time HWT GOAT.  Those facts inform our understanding of who is the "best" among a group of wrestlers who put up similar stats. 

In short, we are allowed to consider Carter's historical dominance to understand and contextualize his present-season dominance.  We don't have to check our brains into the luggage compartment before casting our votes. 

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Lol the fact that they wrote about his biography in a writeup about him proves something? Brilliant. The article clearly shows that his single season is what won the award.

Also, WIN has been very clear that there are four criteria and only four criteria.

Edited Thursday at 08:00 PM by okokzach

[CHROMEBIRD]

  On 3/27/2025 at 6:22 PM, BAC said:

I keep hearing that. Yeah, it isn't "lifetime achievement," but we're not required to put blinders on, either. 

It isn't like NCAA seeding. WIN says "Criteria for the Hodge includes a wrestler’s record, dominance/bonus-point percentage, quality of competition and sportsmanship." (here) Those are guideline criteria to identify the best, most dominant guy, but we're allowed to look beyond the single-season stats and use our brains to figure out who that is. There's never been a single Hodge winner, including last season (here), where the writeup didn't include a discussion of the wrestler's history prior to that season, to help illustrate why he's the best in the current season.

So in Carter's case, it isn't an award for getting 5 titles.  But we're allowed to consider the fact that he's won 5 straight titles, and hasn't lost in over 4 years, to inform our understanding of exactly how good he is, when comparing him against other undefeated guys with similar bonus point percentages.

Consider Gable, for example. If he had won, he'd be the Hodge favorite. But would he still have been the favorite if he were a new-on-the-scene freshman?  I doubt it. Gable is on the top of everyone's P4P list since we know he's a 2x champ and an Olympic champion, and possibly the all-time HWT GOAT.  Those facts inform our understanding of who is the "best" among a group of wrestlers who put up similar stats. 

In short, we are allowed to consider Carter's historical dominance to understand and contextualize his present-season dominance.  We don't have to check our brains into the luggage compartment before casting our votes. 

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Agreed. A lot of folks mistake the Hodge criteria as hard metrics when they're really guidelines and guardrails. If we really wanted to adhere strictly to the stated criteria, WIN magazine could simply assign weights and indices to record, dominance/bonus, quality of competition, and sportsmanship and have an algorithm say who the Hodge winner is. 

 

[ionel]

  On 3/27/2025 at 10:14 PM, CHROMEBIRD said:

 A lot of folks mistake the Hodge criteria ...  and guardrails. 

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Did Dan have a chance to win 5?  I rest my case.

[Dark Energy]

So, after reading up a bit and listening to FRL, seems like the Sportsmanship factor is being ignored by those that are picking Carter.  FRL folks blatantly said that this criteria doesn’t matter to them.  And they don’t see any issue with doing that.  These folks are defining the Hodge how they want to define it.  Fascinating.

Also, when I hear / read a case for Carter, very little attention is generally given to pins as a sign of dominance.  They get minimized or rarely acknowledged or discussed.  Interesting take.

Edited Friday at 12:11 PM by Dark Energy