Hodge Voting Is Open

[Wrestleknownothing]

My argument for two Hodges this year is this.

They are both fifth tournament guys.

Neither of their achievements exist without the fifth year. Therefore you cannot separate this year from past achievements, even though past achievements has been dropped as a secondary criteria.

The tacit argument for Starocci is five titles. The contra-argument is five tries. And the fifth really isn't meaningful (my belief when it comes to ranking 100%ers). But if it isn't meaningful how can we assign meaning to Hendrickson's fifth year?

I choose to assign meaning to both Hendrickson's fifth year and Starocci's five years making me OK with a tie.

 

[okokzach]

21 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Neither of their achievements exist without the fifth year. Therefore you cannot separate this year from past achievements

I don't follow this bit of logic. 

They both wrestled one season this year. The award is for what they did this season. Jokic and SGA won't be judged on prior seasons when the NBA MVP votes are cast. 

[Caveira]

On 3/25/2025 at 2:02 PM, Idaho said:

So what are you renaming the Hodge then? The "Biggest win of the year award because we threw Hodge criteria out the window"? 

It’s been given to a d3 guy.  Please.  

[Wrestleknownothing]

16 minutes ago, okokzach said:

I don't follow this bit of logic. 

They both wrestled one season this year. The award is for what they did this season. Jokic and SGA won't be judged on prior seasons when the NBA MVP votes are cast. 

I agree that is the binary way to look at it. But Jokic and SGA were not allowed to play basketball this season while much of their competition was banned from playing.

But I think if ever there was an exception to the binary approach it is in the year where the top two finalist, with very little to separate them, did two (kinda) unprecedented (albeit in different ways) things, in a season that was only granted to them each as an exception.

[OMW]

55 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

His (Wyatt) bonus wins are PINS!!!!!!!! Which is a higher bonus than majors and techs.

100% true - He was definitely dominant.

But everyone knows heavyweights are turtles...they can't get off their backs!

[poke1]

20 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Yes, past accomplishments are no longer considered.

Exactly.  The criteria states best and most dominant wrestler of the year!  Not past years.

[Paul158]

7 minutes ago, OMW said:

100% true - He was definitely dominant.

But everyone knows heavyweights are turtles...they can't get off their backs!

Thus, be more like a cat and land on your feet or stomach. When I coached my youth wrestlers, I instilled in my wrestlers to not fight all the way to your back. Be more like a cat. Sense danger early and get to your stomach. 

[okokzach]

Bonus points against 2025 NCAA qualifiers:

Hendrickson: 7 pins, 4 tech falls, 0 majors
Starocci: 0 pins, 6 tech falls, 4 majors
Mesenbrink: 0 pins, 6 tech falls, 3 majors

[WrestlingRash]

its about time that people recognize that, just like in fighting/boxing, the only weights that matter are light heavy (197) and heavy. should we get ride of 125 and 133? probably. 

[1032004]

I don’t see how it doesn’t go to Hendrickson given the stated criteria, including sportsmanship. 

I think he deserves it based on the wrestling stats alone, the only reason Starocci would get it is past achievements.

Which brings me back to sportsmanship.  Maybe I’m old school but I don’t think someone that drew a picture of a sex toy on someone else should get an award where sportsmanship is a criteria.

[Coastal]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

I don’t see how it doesn’t go to Hendrickson given the stated criteria, including sportsmanship. 

I think he deserves it based on the wrestling stats alone, the only reason Starocci would get it is past achievements.

Which brings me back to sportsmanship.  Maybe I’m old school but I don’t think someone that drew a picture of a sex toy on someone else should get an award where sportsmanship is a criteria.

But by your criteria,  Starocci's Ferrari picture wasn't during this season so it shouldn't count.

 

[okokzach]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

I don’t see how it doesn’t go to Hendrickson given the stated criteria, including sportsmanship. 

I think he deserves it based on the wrestling stats alone, the only reason Starocci would get it is past achievements.

Which brings me back to sportsmanship.  Maybe I’m old school but I don’t think someone that drew a picture of a sex toy on someone else should get an award where sportsmanship is a criteria.

...and shoved a kids face in the mat and lost a team point for unsportsmanlike conduct, and said he would spit on jordan burroughs, and said he would piss on his opponent's grave...

[1032004]

2 minutes ago, Coastal said:

But by your criteria,  Starocci's Ferrari picture wasn't during this season so it shouldn't count.

 

It was after last season, I’m counting that as this season 

[okokzach]

4 minutes ago, Coastal said:

But by your criteria,  Starocci's Ferrari picture wasn't during this season so it shouldn't count.

Yes it was. It was in the lead-up to this year's All Star Classic. in September of this school year. He also said "I’ll go up in weight just to bend you over in front of the world." 

[scourge165]

4 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

My argument for two Hodges this year is this.

They are both fifth tournament guys.

Neither of their achievements exist without the fifth year. Therefore you cannot separate this year from past achievements, even though past achievements has been dropped as a secondary criteria.

The tacit argument for Starocci is five titles. The contra-argument is five tries. And the fifth really isn't meaningful (my belief when it comes to ranking 100%ers). But if it isn't meaningful how can we assign meaning to Hendrickson's fifth year?

I choose to assign meaning to both Hendrickson's fifth year and Starocci's five years making me OK with a tie.

 

I feel like if EVER the 5th title becomes meaningful and you CAN'T just use the "the other 4 timers would have won it given another try," really falls apart now.

184 was as tough a weight as HWT IMO, the difference is, the people everyone thought was the 3rd best won HWT whereas the favorite won 184. 

 

People are also voting on their own criteria. The best CFB player isn't a QB or RB every year, plenty of times it's been another position, but it goes to who it goes to. So I voted for Starocci...but I also voted for Wyatt. 

I'd really like to see it split.

 

And if we're being honest, based on the actual criteria, it should go to Mesenbrink. Quality of competition? I'll take his level of dominance over 165 over Hendrickson's. A TF is just as dominant as a Pin...IMO. Moreso if I'm being honest. Ramos pinning Lee wasn't dominant, but it's hard to not dominate a guy when you're up 16 on him. Mesenbrink tech falled the runner-up this year and went through the B1G. 

 

I won't be upset with any of the 3 though. They're all clearly worthy. 

[1032004]

2 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I feel like if EVER the 5th title becomes meaningful and you CAN'T just use the "the other 4 timers would have won it given another try," really falls apart now.

184 was as tough a weight as HWT IMO, the difference is, the people everyone thought was the 3rd best won HWT whereas the favorite won 184. 

 

People are also voting on their own criteria. The best CFB player isn't a QB or RB every year, plenty of times it's been another position, but it goes to who it goes to. So I voted for Starocci...but I also voted for Wyatt. 

I'd really like to see it split.

 

And if we're being honest, based on the actual criteria, it should go to Mesenbrink. Quality of competition? I'll take his level of dominance over 165 over Hendrickson's. A TF is just as dominant as a Pin...IMO. Moreso if I'm being honest. Ramos pinning Lee wasn't dominant, but it's hard to not dominate a guy when you're up 16 on him. Mesenbrink tech falled the runner-up this year and went through the B1G. 

 

I won't be upset with any of the 3 though. They're all clearly worthy. 

Mesenbrink is a distant 3rd IMO.  Zero pins and the worst competition

[scourge165]

3 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Mesenbrink is a distant 3rd IMO.  Zero pins and the worst competition

I don't care about pins....I just...kinda covered that. 

[okokzach]

20 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

184 was as tough a weight as HWT IMO, the difference is, the people everyone thought was the 3rd best won HWT whereas the favorite won 184. 

And if we're being honest, based on the actual criteria, it should go to Mesenbrink. Quality of competition? I'll take his level of dominance over 165 over Hendrickson's. A TF is just as dominant as a Pin...IMO. Moreso if I'm being honest. Ramos pinning Lee wasn't dominant, but it's hard to not dominate a guy when you're up 16 on him. Mesenbrink tech falled the runner-up this year and went through the B1G. 

Gable is a generational wrestler. No other weight class has a wrestler on his level. 

I disagree that techs are as dominant as pins, but if you want to equate them, then Wyatt had 21 combined pins/techs and MM had 18.  And Wyatt was robbed of a pin against Feldman, he had him on his back when he called for injury time and then defaulted. 

[ionel]

3 minutes ago, okokzach said:

Gable is a generational wrestler. No other weight class has a wrestler on his level. 

I disagree that techs are as dominant as pins, but if you want to equate them, then Wyatt had 21 combined pins/techs and MM had 18.  And Wyatt was robbed of a pin against Feldman, he had him on his back when he called for injury time and then defaulted. 

Pretty sure Keuter also.

[okokzach]

2 minutes ago, ionel said:

Pretty sure Keuter also.

I agree he had Keuter pinned and the ref didn't call it, but Wyatt still got the TF5, whereas with Feldman it goes down as a INJ.

[ionel]

1 minute ago, okokzach said:

I agree he had Keuter pinned and the ref didn't call it, but Wyatt still got the TF5, whereas with Feldman it goes down as a INJ.

Yeah I was mat side Feldman he was going to be pinned.  Row 14 Keuter ... he was flat twice but no way that Iowa ref was gonna call it. 

[1032004]

36 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I don't care about pins....I just...kinda covered that. 

But you don’t actually think the qualify of completion is comparable do you?  I know it’s not his fault (honestly him being there could be part of the reason why O’Toole and/or Hamiti bumped up), but Hendrickson’s competition blows his out of the water.

Mesenbrink didn’t wrestle anyone that had been in a national final prior to this year, and Caliendo and Amine are the only prior AA’s he wrestled (with Minto being the only additional one this year), and he had a total of 3 decisions against them.

Hendrickson had to beat 2 champions, a prior finalist, a prior AA (got 6 team points), plus 2 additional guys that earned AA this year (pinning one of them twice and teching the other).

[okokzach]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

But you don’t actually think the qualify of completion is comparable do you?  I know it’s not his fault (honestly him being there could be part of the reason why O’Toole and/or Hamiti bumped up), but Hendrickson’s competition blows his out of the water.

Mesenbrink didn’t wrestle anyone that had been in a national final prior to this year, and Caliendo and Amine are the only prior AA’s he wrestled (with Minto being the only additional one this year), and he had a total of 3 decisions against them.

Hendrickson had to beat 2 champions, a prior finalist, a prior AA (got 6 team points), plus 2 additional guys that earned AA this year (pinning one of them twice and teching the other).

lol I promise you neither O'Toole nor Hamiti left 165 because of Mesenbrink

[1032004]

11 minutes ago, okokzach said:

lol I promise you neither O'Toole nor Hamiti left 165 because of Mesenbrink

Maybe not Hamiti, but he and O’Toole are friends aren’t they?

[okokzach]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

Maybe not Hamiti, but he and O’Toole are friends aren’t they?

Well I thought the implication was that people were ducking him. If anyone ducked him to go to 174, they royally screwed up