Kolat vs Bassett

[scourge165]

21 minutes ago, fishbane said:

He took 3rd at Midlands back in 1989.  Joe WIlliams is younger than Kolat and would not win the tournament until 5 years later in 1994.  This is a year after Kolat won Midlands for the first time.  In 1989 when Kolat placed third there were no significant post grad entries in his bracket.

I never said...nor inferred they were in the same weight or same year, I was pointing out the Midlands were a tougher tournament back then and cited one anecdotal example of a guy who wrestled in and won the tournament several more times after his Collegiate career ended.

 

2 hours ago, OH-IO said:

wait, being honest and straight forward BB will be 19 when he graduates from HS, seriously or is this????  doesnt change how much talent he has just just makes it less impressive, personally I was 17 and 9 months old when i graduated, at 19 i was totally different...for the better!  

 

its not like i havent heard of this (kids being much older while still in HS) before if we are being honest, i just didnt know BB was, well basically a Freshmen in college age wise but only a Junior in HS!  

I went to a school who was in my grade and born 2 years and 6 months before me. He was my same grade. 

A lot of things go into that. 

As long as you're still winning age-level World Medals, you're fine. 

 

I do feel like in College you start to get to the point of diminishing returns year 6 or when you're 24/25. You're not as fresh, you've got beaten up more. You have a bigger target.

This could be a lot of the Iowa 'runs their guys into the ground,' basis. Because they've had some guys transfer and as happens, you inevitably get beat up. 

 

 

Lot of pressure on this kid. A kid who's REALLY really good, but who is arguably 3rd in his class(Again, Forrest and Ross...who'd be my #1 if he choose Wrestling). 

Edited Saturday at 06:42 PM by scourge165

[fishbane]

9 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I never said...nor inferred they were in the same weight or same year, I was pointing out the Midlands were a tougher tournament back then and cited one anecdotal example of a guy who wrestled in and won the tournament several more times after his Collegiate career ended.

Pointing out that that Midlands were often tougher than NCAAs and guys like Joe Williams would wrestle in it after graduation are both not applicable to Kolat's 3rd place finish.  Selecting Joe Williams as your example was especially funny because he wouldn't wrestle in Midlands for another 5 years, but as I also pointed out there were no significant post grad entires in Kolat's bracket.  No post grad wrestler that had placed at the D1 NCAA tournament was in Kolat's bracket in 1989.  His bracket was not tougher than the 118 bracket at the 1990 NCAA tournament.  Both NCAA finalists and the 7th place finisher were there.  Kolat beat the 7th place finisher didn't wrestle the other two.  I think the presence of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th place finishers at NCAAs more than makes up for Kolat's absence.  The two facts you gave might be true of some weight at Midlands in 1989, but they were not true of Kolat's. 

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

Bassett turned 18 in August of last year.  He will turn 19 in August of this year and graduate in June of next year.  I think this puts him two years older than if he had enrolled at the min age in PA.  However if he had done that he would have been one of the youngest graduates in his class like you probably were.

Kolat turned 18 in May of his junior year.  He turned 19 in may of his senior year.  I think this puts him a year older than enrollment at the min age.  Kolat had enrolled at the min age and famously intentionally failed 8th grade the first time through.

In cases like theirs (and all cases really) I think the hold back holds back wrestling development.  Kolat beat AAs in placing 3rd at the Midlands in Dec of 1989 when he was 16 years old.  He was too far ahead of his peers by the end of his junior year and would have been better off in a college room.  Bassett beat Anthony Ashnault 12-2 last spring at their last chance OTT qualifier when he was 17 years old.  Hard to imagine he gets much out of wrestling a high school schedule next year.

I was wrong about Bassett's age.  He was born January of 2007.  He just turned 18, so no double hold back or anything like that.  He will turn 19 in early January of his senior year in high school,  Kolat turned 19 in May of his senior year.  About a 4 month age diff.

[Truzzcat]

1 minute ago, fishbane said:

I was wrong about Bassett's age.  He was born January of 2007.  He just turned 18, so no double hold back or anything like that.  He will turn 19 in early January of his senior year in high school,  Kolat turned 19 in May of his senior year.  About a 4 month age diff.

no his birthdays in August hes 19 uww age if he was born in January he would still be 18 on their website I believe he confirmed his birthday was August 4th 2006.

[fishbane]

4 minutes ago, Truzzcat said:

no his birthdays in August hes 19 uww age if he was born in January he would still be 18 on their website I believe he confirmed his birthday was August 4th 2006.

I really don't know.  The Rudis website has his birthday as January 2007 - https://www.rudis.com/pages/athlete-detail-bo-bassett

[MPhillips]

10 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I was wondering when Fried would get mentioned.

Fourth post...

The only disappointment regarding Phillips is a selfish one, in that we didn't get to see him in college. 

[Paul158]

1 hour ago, MPhillips said:

Fourth post...

The only disappointment regarding Phillips is a selfish one, in that we didn't get to see him in college. 

I remember him beating the NO.1 ranked wrestler from ST. EDs in the finals of the Ironman when he was a freshman. I believe the score wasn't even very close. What a talent. Little tiny Monroeville I think they had 4 4time state champs. Right at the same time almost. Did Phillips ever go to Fargo to wrestle?

Edited Saturday at 09:36 PM by Paul158

[scourge165]

2 hours ago, fishbane said:

Pointing out that that Midlands were often tougher than NCAAs and guys like Joe Williams would wrestle in it after graduation are both not applicable to Kolat's 3rd place finish.  Selecting Joe Williams as your example was especially funny because he wouldn't wrestle in Midlands for another 5 years, but as I also pointed out there were no significant post grad entires in Kolat's bracket.  No post grad wrestler that had placed at the D1 NCAA tournament was in Kolat's bracket in 1989.  His bracket was not tougher than the 118 bracket at the 1990 NCAA tournament.  Both NCAA finalists and the 7th place finisher were there.  Kolat beat the 7th place finisher didn't wrestle the other two.  I think the presence of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th place finishers at NCAAs more than makes up for Kolat's absence.  The two facts you gave might be true of some weight at Midlands in 1989, but they were not true of Kolat's. 

Really? Again with pointing out Joe Williams wasn't in that bracket?

AGAIN...the POINT was that it used to be a tournament that Sr level Wrestlers would participate in and Williams one anecdotal example. 

It has to do with the level of competition of the Midlands back in the 80s/90s vs today. That's it. 

"Often," also doesn't literally mean EVERY SINGLE time...it means, "in many instances." 

 

The fact that there was a 7th place finisher and 2 NCAA Finalists is...in and of itself fairly compelling.

But nowhere did I say, "the Midlands were tougher the year and at the weight Cary Kolat took 3rd as a Soph in HS than the NCAA Tournaments." 

[MPhillips]

8 hours ago, Paul158 said:

I remember him beating the NO.1 ranked wrestler from ST. EDs in the finals of the Ironman when he was a freshman. I believe the score wasn't even very close. What a talent. Little tiny Monroeville I think they had 4 4time state champs. Right at the same time almost. Did Phillips ever go to Fargo to wrestle?

Beat three nationally ranked guys in the same day. Didn't have a close match.  The Monroeville Four, Logan Steiber, Hunter Steiber, Cam Tessari and Phillips. HS record of 579-9  all nine losses at Ironman. 

Phillips was a Fargo champ in 2007 I believe. Not sure beyond that...

[billyhoyle]

Kolat and Bassett were both held back and graduated/will graduate high school at 19.  Kyle Snyder was a junior world champion in high school and senior world champion at 19.  That's all you need to know for who the best high school wrestler ever was. Schultz probably is #2. 

 

The Chris Phillips talk is misplaced. He was an insanely talented HS freshman, but that was the year that he likely peaked. I wouldn't put him in the same conversation as Kolat or Bassett. 

Edited yesterday at 09:40 AM by billyhoyle

[scourge165]

7 hours ago, Paul158 said:

I remember him beating the NO.1 ranked wrestler from ST. EDs in the finals of the Ironman when he was a freshman. I believe the score wasn't even very close. What a talent. Little tiny Monroeville I think they had 4 4time state champs. Right at the same time almost. Did Phillips ever go to Fargo to wrestle?

I don't believe Phillips wrestled much Freestyle of Greco...but I think he won a Cadet Title heading into HS. So as an 8th grader...he got a stop sign. Not sure he got anymore(or tried to get any more). 

I know he had a pretty epic run as a Freshmen in the Ironman beating  Zac Thomusseit, and Brian Roddy who was the #1 ranked '71 in the Country...and it wasn't that close. He didn't major Roddy, but I remember he had several near TDs on the edge and controlled the match. I wanna say it was a 9-3 type match. 

 

[scourge165]

4 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

Kolat and Bassett were both held back and graduated/will graduate high school at 19.  Kyle Snyder was a junior world champion in high school and senior world champion at 19.  That's all you need to know for who the best high school wrestler ever was. Schultz probably is #2. 

 

The Chris Phillips talk is misplaced. He was an insanely talented HS freshman, but that was the year that he likely peaked. I wouldn't put him in the same conversation as Kolat or Bassett. 

No, I don't think so. I think it's well placed. He's deserving. With regard to Snyder, I'm as big a fan as any, but...are we now adding a True Freshmen's accomplishments to their HS credentials? If not, the World Championship Snyder won at 19 is irrelevant. After a year of college wrestling, it is irrelevant. It wasn't in HS.

AS for Phillips, the kid lost one match to Ed Ruth that he later avenged. I don't know why the Freshmen year was the peak, but you're going to get a variety of opinions.

How about Dan Gable, Chance Masteller, PJ Duke(isn't he on pace to become the first 6X NY State Champ or was it just the first 7th grader?).

 

Shultz probably had the best year ever, but he was a 3X place winner who went 4/4/1. So you can pretty easily point to flaws in any argument...which is my least favorite way of doing this given all of their credentials(they should be HS credentials though). 

[OH-IO]

20 hours ago, MPhillips said:

Fourth post...

The only disappointment regarding Phillips is a selfish one, in that we didn't get to see him in college. 

I agree, kid was just an absolute mega talent,someone said it better than I.....very similar to Kyle Snyder in fact probably identical.....hey as long as that youngman is doing well and I hope he is...... yes that HS team they came from was scary good IF my memory is correct Stiebers' (x2), Cam Tessari and Chris Phillips!  

[OH-IO]

1 hour ago, scourge165 said:

No, I don't think so. I think it's well placed. He's deserving. With regard to Snyder, I'm as big a fan as any, but...are we now adding a True Freshmen's accomplishments to their HS credentials? If not, the World Championship Snyder won at 19 is irrelevant. After a year of college wrestling, it is irrelevant. It wasn't in HS.

AS for Phillips, the kid lost one match to Ed Ruth that he later avenged. I don't know why the Freshmen year was the peak, but you're going to get a variety of opinions.

How about Dan Gable, Chance Masteller, PJ Duke(isn't he on pace to become the first 6X NY State Champ or was it just the first 7th grader?).

 

Shultz probably had the best year ever, but he was a 3X place winner who went 4/4/1. So you can pretty easily point to flaws in any argument...which is my least favorite way of doing this given all of their credentials(they should be HS credentials though). 

great points aboout Gable, Marsteller & Duke either could be there and I am quite certain there are some who say they are #1, you wont hear me complaining thats for sure...... for me #1 would be Kolat #2 would be Chris Phillips and than after that many will be mixed in for #3 - #10

 

I will say Chris may or may not have peaked, very doubtful me personally I belive he may have become "burnt out/not challenged"  (which could be similar and the same as peaked), what I will say is many if not most found it better to survive vs Chris than to try and wrestle with him after his Freshmen year, nothing for nothing I believe more simply stayed away from his weight class to avoid him...... 

Tom Ryan said it best when I ran into him a few years ago when OSU was at Davidson...... I asked him hey I heard Chris is looking @ OSU and may be on the roster in the future, I asked him does he start if everything works out "he simply said nobody will touch Chris if everything works out, he is simply dominating everyone, the same as he did in HS he is doing in college" he left it with............ "he something special"

[OH-IO]

alright gents im gonna do it, bascally I have some extra time on my hands before SuperBowl.... I have a few ties plus an HM, dont bash me too hard for my selections, lol.......

#1 Kolat~ PA

#2 Phillips ~ OH

#3  (tie) Marsteller PA / Alan Fried OH

#4  (tie) Metcalf MI/ Joe Williams IL

#5 Nikal ~ TX

#6 Suriano~ NJ

#7  (tie)Mocco ~ NJ / Gable Stevenson MN

#8 Taylor ~ OH 

#9 Mike Johnson ~ PA (some say never even taken down?)

#10 TJ Jaworsky ~ OK / Mark Hall MN

HM....... Cael Sanderson (3 losses), Gable (64 matches total), Lee (take away the knee injury and the state title loss he's #2), Sheldon Thomas DE, Bo Jordan OH, David Carr, Jason Nolf (Ryan Diehl loss keeps him from top 3)....Kyle Snyder would be top 5, only wrestled 3 years MD

Edited yesterday at 05:27 PM by OH-IO

[Paul158]

5 hours ago, OH-IO said:

alright gents im gonna do it, bascally I have some extra time on my hands before SuperBowl.... I have a few ties plus an HM, dont bash me too hard for my selections, lol.......

#1 Kolat~ PA

#2 Phillips ~ OH

#3  (tie) Marsteller PA / Alan Fried OH

#4  (tie) Metcalf MI/ Joe Williams IL

#5 Nikal ~ TX

#6 Suriano~ NJ

#7  (tie)Mocco ~ NJ / Gable Stevenson MN

#8 Taylor ~ OH 

#9 Mike Johnson ~ PA (some say never even taken down?)

#10 TJ Jaworsky ~ OK / Mark Hall MN

HM....... Cael Sanderson (3 losses), Gable (64 matches total), Lee (take away the knee injury and the state title loss he's #2), Sheldon Thomas DE, Bo Jordan OH, David Carr, Jason Nolf (Ryan Diehl loss keeps him from top 3)....Kyle Snyder would be top 5, only wrestled 3 years MD

Would you consider Dustin Schlatter in your list somewhere. He and Metcalf were pretty even with Dustin winning the last high school match. 4 time Ohio Champ.

[OH-IO]

22 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

Would you consider Dustin Schlatter in your list somewhere. He and Metcalf were pretty even with Dustin winning the last high school match. 4 time Ohio Champ.

Paul158~ absolutely yes, to be honest I had him (Dustin) along with Helen Maroulis, Taylor Massa and a few others on my "final 10" list........ just a fun topic for us all to ponder!  

[billyhoyle]

10 hours ago, scourge165 said:

No, I don't think so. I think it's well placed. He's deserving. With regard to Snyder, I'm as big a fan as any, but...are we now adding a True Freshmen's accomplishments to their HS credentials? If not, the World Championship Snyder won at 19 is irrelevant. After a year of college wrestling, it is irrelevant. It wasn't in HS.

AS for Phillips, the kid lost one match to Ed Ruth that he later avenged. I don't know why the Freshmen year was the peak, but you're going to get a variety of opinions.

How about Dan Gable, Chance Masteller, PJ Duke(isn't he on pace to become the first 6X NY State Champ or was it just the first 7th grader?).

 

Shultz probably had the best year ever, but he was a 3X place winner who went 4/4/1. So you can pretty easily point to flaws in any argument...which is my least favorite way of doing this given all of their credentials(they should be HS credentials though). 

No.  I'm using Kyle Snyder's accomplishments as a true freshman to discount the senior years of Kolat and Bassett in relation to him. At the same age that they were/will finish high school, Snyder was beating Gadisov.  I don't think it's close between him and those two.  I'd say after Snyder, I'd probably have a number of people ahead of Kolat/Bassett, including Schultz, Cejudo, and Steveson (Steveson did not lose in high school matches after age 13 and was a 2X cadet and 1X junior world champion).   

For Schultz, I'll take the argument against him being that he wasn't peaking until his senior year. But I think peak performance is a much better indicator of how good somebody was in high school than how good they were at 14.  That's why I rank him second--because what he accomplished senior year was unprecedented. 

Having Phillips anywhere on this list is wildly overrating him though. By his senior year, he was the #9 recruit in his class. Everyone knew he had fallen off from his freshman year and he barely wrestled outside of Ohio. 

 

 

Edited 21 hours ago by billyhoyle

[Hammerlock3]

Chris Philips made his host pull over so he could buy cigarettes on a recruiting trip. 

[pokemonster]

On 2/8/2025 at 1:33 PM, scourge165 said:

I was wondering when Fried would get mentioned. I think Kolat was a better HS Wrestler, but...Fried was a freak as well.

 

I think these things are relative. Bassett did worst at some of these Sr Level tournaments than his own HS teammate(in fairness...Forrest is pretty damn good as well). 

But it's more common now to see a HS kid beat an absolute hammer and high AA/NC.

Mirasola beat Dean and in his first year of College, he lost 10-1 to Josh Barr. 
Blaze has some pretty damn impressive notches on his belt. 

When Kolat and Fried were doing it, it was a helluva lot more rare.  Probably because the best of the best in this sport are...getting better each year and the year 'round Wrestling and high level coaching is great for them, but I think it's important.

 

Chris Phillips was right there with Kyle Snyder as the best SINCE Kolat/Fried to me...though not it's just too hard to measure. They're all really good.

 

Only one correction(not to you, from an earlier post), Phillips wasn't a Freshman losing to a Sr Ruth. I'm about 90% sure he lost in the Ironman as a Soph to the Jr Ruth and then came back and avenged him the following year. 

I also don't lost the comments kinda inferring Phillips was a disappointment. I mean, sure, I was disappointed I didn't get to see him Wrestle, but far as I know, that was just a personal choice and he didn't Wrestle because he was burned out. I thought he paid his own way and went back and worked on the farm or something, but not like he got into trouble and threw it away. I'm fine with that. In fact, I have more respect for that. If you're burned out/sick of Wrestling, whatever it is, you don't love the sport, don't take up a scholarship. 

Fried was the man for sure. 

In regards to Phillips, I always heard he couldn't cut it in the classroom and that's what held him up. Probably that tied with HEW. 

[pokemonster]

5 hours ago, Paul158 said:

Would you consider Dustin Schlatter in your list somewhere. He and Metcalf were pretty even with Dustin winning the last high school match. 4 time Ohio Champ.

I'm pretty sure Metcalf won a controversial first match at the Medina invitational, Dustin Schlatter won the rematch at senior nationals. But they did split. I am biased, but believe Schlatter was better. 

[pokemonster]

10 hours ago, OH-IO said:

alright gents im gonna do it, bascally I have some extra time on my hands before SuperBowl.... I have a few ties plus an HM, dont bash me too hard for my selections, lol.......

#1 Kolat~ PA

#2 Phillips ~ OH

#3  (tie) Marsteller PA / Alan Fried OH

#4  (tie) Metcalf MI/ Joe Williams IL

#5 Nikal ~ TX

#6 Suriano~ NJ

#7  (tie)Mocco ~ NJ / Gable Stevenson MN

#8 Taylor ~ OH 

#9 Mike Johnson ~ PA (some say never even taken down?)

#10 TJ Jaworsky ~ OK / Mark Hall MN

HM....... Cael Sanderson (3 losses), Gable (64 matches total), Lee (take away the knee injury and the state title loss he's #2), Sheldon Thomas DE, Bo Jordan OH, David Carr, Jason Nolf (Ryan Diehl loss keeps him from top 3)....Kyle Snyder would be top 5, only wrestled 3 years MD

Where's Logan Stieber? Lost one match in high school, his freshman year to a sophomore David Taylor. Also placed third at the US Open and fourth at the WTT as a junior in high school. Can't get much better than that. 

[pokemonster]

2 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

No.  I'm using Kyle Snyder's accomplishments as a true freshman to discount the senior years of Kolat and Bassett in relation to him. At the same age that they were/will finish high school, Snyder was beating Gadisov.  I don't think it's close between him and those two. 

I'd agree with you here. I couldn't imagine getting an extra 2 years on my competition while in high school. That extra development is a cheat code. It also doesn't make much sense to me when they are already elite, stop wasting time in high school tech falling kids in the first minute when you're apparently good enough to place at the NCAAs. 

[Paul158]

2 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

No.  I'm using Kyle Snyder's accomplishments as a true freshman to discount the senior years of Kolat and Bassett in relation to him. At the same age that they were/will finish high school, Snyder was beating Gadisov.  I don't think it's close between him and those two.  I'd say after Snyder, I'd probably have a number of people ahead of Kolat/Bassett, including Schultz, Cejudo, and Steveson (Steveson did not lose in high school matches after age 13 and was a 2X cadet and 1X junior world champion).   

For Schultz, I'll take the argument against him being that he wasn't peaking until his senior year. But I think peak performance is a much better indicator of how good somebody was in high school than how good they were at 14.  That's why I rank him second--because what he accomplished senior year was unprecedented. 

Having Phillips anywhere on this list is wildly overrating him though. By his senior year, he was the #9 recruit in his class. Everyone knew he had fallen off from his freshman year and he barely wrestled outside of Ohio. 

 

 

Didn't Snyder have to beat Olympic Champ Varner just to make the world team that year?

[pokemonster]

32 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

Didn't Snyder have to beat Olympic Champ Varner just to make the world team that year?

Yep