What does history say of a 4x champ that fails to win 5?

[peanut]

This is what Mike Tyson reportedly said about his legacy in an interview with a 14 year old:

"I don't believe in the word 'legacy.' I think that's another word for ego. Legacy doesn't mean nothing. That's just some word everybody grabbed on to. Someone said that word and everyone grabbed on to that word, now it's used every five seconds.

It means absolutely nothing to me. I'm just passing through. I'm gonna die and it's gonna be over. Who cares about legacy after that?

So I'm gonna die. I want people to think that I'm this, I'm great? No, we're nothing. We're just dead. We're dust. We're absolutely nothing. Our legacy is nothing."

[PortaJohn]

9 hours ago, BruceyB said:

2. Cael didn't beat anyone who went on to win a National title?

He beat Hahn in a one point match one of his years.  He also beat Brad Vering & Mark Munoz

Edited February 2 by PortaJohn

[11986]

at NCAA tournament, I found 2 wins by Cael over future champs. In 1999 semi-final at 184, he pinned Brad Vering in 1:59. Vering won it 197 the next season. In 2000 quarter final, he won 20-5 over Rob Rohn. Rohn won it at 184 in 2002. 

[666]

11 minutes ago, 11986 said:

fwiw Demeray dropped back to 150 in 1992 and won NCAA tournament while Smith was winning his 3rd title at 158. That year Smith beat Ray Miller in the finals, Miller would win title next season at 167. Smith also beat eventual 3x champ Joe Williams his senior year (1994) by TF in the dual (Joe was a freshman).  

I think people tend to forget how good Pat Smith was, despite his 4 NCAA titles, because he never made the national team at the Sr level. Plus that was 30 years ago, how many people under the age of 40 can claim to have watched Pat?

[666]

10 minutes ago, peanut said:

This is what Mike Tyson reportedly said about his legacy in an interview with a 14 year old:

"I don't believe in the word 'legacy.' I think that's another word for ego. Legacy doesn't mean nothing. That's just some word everybody grabbed on to. Someone said that word and everyone grabbed on to that word, now it's used every five seconds.

It means absolutely nothing to me. I'm just passing through. I'm gonna die and it's gonna be over. Who cares about legacy after that?

So I'm gonna die. I want people to think that I'm this, I'm great? No, we're nothing. We're just dead. We're dust. We're absolutely nothing. Our legacy is nothing."

Tyson isn't known for his towering intellect. 

[forkemaz]

1 hour ago, peanut said:

This is what Mike Tyson reportedly said about his legacy in an interview with a 14 year old:

"I don't believe in the word 'legacy.' I think that's another word for ego. Legacy doesn't mean nothing. That's just some word everybody grabbed on to. Someone said that word and everyone grabbed on to that word, now it's used every five seconds.

It means absolutely nothing to me. I'm just passing through. I'm gonna die and it's gonna be over. Who cares about legacy after that?

So I'm gonna die. I want people to think that I'm this, I'm great? No, we're nothing. We're just dead. We're dust. We're absolutely nothing. Our legacy is nothing."

He said that because he knew he just sold his legacy for a freak show exhibition. 

[AgaveMaria]

Some of us older folks remember Cael & his career well.

He never missed a match. He beat everyone for his four full seasons as the Starter for ISU.

After three seasons undefeated we were hearing "let him come up to 197 - he'll gt his azz handed to him" - so he went up & still won it all. 184 saw guys going up or down to avoid him - part of why he went up.

Hahn match at 184 was close manly because Hahn slowed it down big time - mainly stalling & hoping for a last minute takedown. Didn't work.

As for a 5 timer? It is a fluke of the rules. If Starocci makes it, good for him, he earned it. If he doesn't it takes nothing away from his 4 titles and will be fodder for discussion for decades to come.

Hope he does it, good for the sport.

[ionel]

4 minutes ago, AgaveMaria said:

Some of us older folks remember Cael & his career well.

... you've said too much!  @MPhillips would like a word.  

[ionel]

4 hours ago, 666 said:

Found it. 

 

Interesting to go back and watch this.  Pat seemed unconcerned that his opponent might get to his ankle or that he might get taken down.  He had so many options he was just looking to see which one opened up.  

[MPhillips]

6 minutes ago, ionel said:

would like a word.

We're all misfits here...

[ionel]

16 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

We're all misfits here...

... except for that group of dummies  in the back ... 

[MPhillips]

7 hours ago, ionel said:

... except for that group of dummies

So... Ignorance is bliss?

[ionel]

Just now, MPhillips said:

So... Ignorance is bliss?

Most definitely ... get on it. 

[fishbane]

On 2/2/2025 at 12:04 AM, BruceyB said:

I completely agree. I would probably put David Taylor and Ben Askren (I used them because they were both only two time champs) above some 4xers. Askren could have been a 4x champion if Pendleton were a couple years older, and Taylor could have as well if not for a cradle and Kyle Dake. But regardless, the fact that each of them lost twice in the finals hurt their legacy.

Which 4xer do you have Askren above? I don't see a lot of 4xers he could be above.  Sanderson, Dake, Stieber, Diakomihalis, and Brooks all won world medals at the senior level.

[fishbane]

On 2/2/2025 at 4:18 AM, Husker_Du said:

Cael beat Trenge who let a title slip away in the final moments to Hahn

He also beat Hahn.

[fishbane]

On 2/2/2025 at 1:27 AM, BruceyB said:

I meant current or future NCAA champs. 

1. I don't know about Pat Smith's wins.

2. Cael didn't beat anyone who went on to win a National title?

3. Dake beat Molinaro, St. John, and DT

4. Stieber beat J.O. and Ramos

5. Yanni beat Dean Heil

6. Aaron Brooks beat Keckeisen

7. Starocci beat Griffith, and Lewis

So of 7 four-time champs, 5 beat either former or eventual national champions (maybe 6 if Smith did as well). So typically, 4x champs do beat NCAA champions.

I'm surprised that you of all people wouldn't agree that the years of eligibility and the field you compete against are a major factor in how many titles an individual wins. Winning 4 titles doesn't necessarily mean you were better than someone who won two but ran into a buzz saw and didn't win 4.

The only wrestler Sanderson beat in folk style whilst in college that had already won a national title was Lee Fullhart in the Midlands finals his senior year.  Fullhart had graduated three years earlier in 1999.  If you're going to count wrestlers that went on to later win NCAA titles Sanderson beat four of those in college.  He beat Damien Hahn, Mark Munoz, Rob Rohn and Brad Vering before they won NCAA titles.  If you don't want to count Hahn because he should have lost to Trenge, Cael also beat Trenge.  If you don't want to count Rohn because he was lucky to beat Lambecht, Sanderson also beat Lambecht multiple times and by bonus every time.

Mark Munoz (Oklahoma State) 10-2 MD

Brad Vering (Nebraska) FORFEIT W

Brad Vering (Nebraska) 9-5 D

Brad Vering (Nebraska) 1:58 FALL

Damion Hahn (Minnesota) 4-3 D

Rob Rohn (Lehigh) 20-5 TF

Lee Fullhart (Team Excel) 5-3 D

Finalists

Vertus Jones (West Virginia) 6-5 D

Brandon Eggum (Minnesota) 6-1 D

Brandon Eggum (Minnesota) 7-4 D

Brandon Eggum (Minnesota) 8-0 MD

Daniel Cormier (Oklahoma State) 20-9 MD

Brandon Eggum (Minnesota) 6-1 D

Daniel Cormier (Oklahoma State) 8-4 D

Brandon Eggum (Minnesota) 16-5 MD

Vertus Jones (West Virginia) 19-6 MD

Josh Lambrecht (Oklahoma) 12-4 MD

Josh Lambrecht (Oklahoma) 16-8 MD

Daniel Cormier (Oklahoma State) 14-3 MD

Daniel Cormier (Oklahoma State) 10-3 D

Josh Lambrecht (Oklahoma) 25-10 MD

Daniel Cormier (Oklahoma State) 8-3 D

Daniel Cormier (Oklahoma State) 8-4 D

Ryan Fulsass (Iowa) 1:41 FALL

Jon Trenge (Lehigh) 16-5 MD

Ryan Fulaas (Iowa) FORFEIT

Jon Trenge (Lehigh) 6-1 D

Scott Barker (Missouri) 22-7 TF

Scott Barker (Missouri) 21-4 TF

Jon Trenge (Lehigh) 12-4 MD