Southern Scuffle is a shell of it's former self, and so are the rest of the tourneys

[666]

Hi guys, new user here. Figured this would be a good way to introduce myself: by complaining about a formerly great tournament. 

I was reading Flo this morning about the participants at the Scuffle this year. What a collection of weak sisters. The highest ranked kid participating is Lenny Wolak (ranked #4), who was teched by Dean Hamiti a couple weeks ago. The next highest ranked is Stevo Poulin at #7.  Mosha Schwartz is #8 (but who are we fooling, he's overrated), and #9 Nasir Bailey. 

Remember when Cornell/PSU (and lots of other tough teams) showed up at the Scuffle? Remember the legendary battle between Dake/Taylor in the Scuffle finals that one year? The Scuffle was the toughest wrestling folkstyle tournament on Earth, except for NCAAs, for several years. What the hell happened? While on the topic, the Midlands was a pale joke this year (and has been for a long, long time), and I have to admit that CKLV didn't overly impress me either, but it was clearly better than the other "premiere" tournaments this year. 

What the heck happened? Why are in-season tournaments such duds these days? Iowa going to the Soldier Salute obviously watered down the Midlands, but why did teams decide to quit participating in the Scuffle? 

[dragit]

Although this trend has been covered a fair amount in threads over the years it's a good new topic here for a lot of reasons. And introducing yourself by complaining means you are in the right place.   

My two cents would be that the death of the in season tournament is the most prominent symptom of the larger point that only one thing matters at all in the sport anymore -- the three days where there is a sold out 20,000 seat arena and wall to wall national TV coverage.

It's so bad that even the conference tournaments aren't taken seriously for any purpose other than as a qualifier - MFFs galore.  Not sure how many times I've gone to or tuned into a dual mainly to see a particular guy and he is in street clothes. 

It's just incentives.  All the incentives are for the NCAA.  Sports are all like this now.  Basketball is unwatchable because of the incentives created by the 3 point shot.  Baseball is heading that way because of the incentives created by high velocity pitches and the inability to get batters out more than twice.

All the money for coaches and wrestlers is the NCAA finish. So they don't Wrestle much and don't seek out risks.  Wake me up in March.

[666]

Good points, dragit. Speaking of the money in college sports I saw that the QB of the Texas Longhorns has been offered $6 million just to enter the transfer portal. It's going to get more extreme with each passing year. I don't know how college sports can continue much longer. Who is paying these kids? I'm assuming alumni. I HOPE it's alumni, the idea of my tax dollars going to pay a kid to play college sports is offensive as hell. 

[MJD]

Keep your team healthy for the NCAA tournament, the only thing that matters for a coach's pay and an athlete's record. The other season tourneys are worthless. It's only about NCAA.

[666]

28 minutes ago, MJD said:

Keep your team healthy for the NCAA tournament, the only thing that matters for a coach's pay and an athlete's record. The other season tourneys are worthless. It's only about NCAA.

Pretty sad statement. True, but sad. 

[Hillbilly Jim]

Key word is incentivize--or remove disincentives.  One thing that would help is a system that incentivizes WINS--and increases that incentive for QUALITY WINS.  The issue now is that losses--particularly bad losses to low ranked guys or stud redshirt true freshman without much ranking--is a killer.  Further, if you have a high ranking, you don't need to do much to keep it.  Why not incentivize wins and quality wins--don't punish losses at all?  Just seed based on who has the most winning weighted for quality.  This way guys will be encouraged to get as many wins as they can--particularly the quality wins--and no downside for losing.  Put in some guardrails for allowable number of matches so guys don't wrestle too much.  Guys will want the matches and the ducking will decrease.  Just a thought.....

[alex1fly]

18 minutes ago, Hillbilly Jim said:

Key word is incentivize--or remove disincentives.  One thing that would help is a system that incentivizes WINS--and increases that incentive for QUALITY WINS.  The issue now is that losses--particularly bad losses to low ranked guys or stud redshirt true freshman without much ranking--is a killer.  Further, if you have a high ranking, you don't need to do much to keep it.  Why not incentivize wins and quality wins--don't punish losses at all?  Just seed based on who has the most winning weighted for quality.  This way guys will be encouraged to get as many wins as they can--particularly the quality wins--and no downside for losing.  Put in some guardrails for allowable number of matches so guys don't wrestle too much.  Guys will want the matches and the ducking will decrease.  Just a thought.....

Dig this

Reminds me of my Dad telling the story of one of his college science classes. Positive points for answers right, negative points for answers wrong. Most of the class ended up with a score below zero.

It does seem a little silly and has clearly led to gaming the system for favorable seeds. "I did good last year, so this year I'll do as little as possible for a better chance at the next NCAAs" is pretty lame.

[Animal197]

It’s a shame we can’t see a super fight type match between the Midlands and Soldier Salute champs. The timing could work.

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

And further in tournaments where 2 teammates make the finals they don't even wrestle....quack quack

[JeanGuy]

Coaches don't want guys approaching 40 matches a year for the most part. Going to tournaments especially the top guys add a lot of matches. Is there a benefit to Gable Steveson to wrestle 35 matches this season versus 20? Probably not.

Sports as a whole are changing and I think the big tournament model is going to be gone before long.

[666]

21 hours ago, Animal197 said:

It’s a shame we can’t see a super fight type match between the Midlands and Soldier Salute champs. The timing could work.

It wouldn't be much of a super fight. Both of those tournaments were weak this year. 

[Hammerlock3]

Duals don't matter and neither do tournaments....we need some leadership, preferably out of Cael, but the current model is good for him and horrible for the sport. 

[1032004]

46 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

Duals don't matter and neither do tournaments....we need some leadership, preferably out of Cael, but the current model is good for him and horrible for the sport. 

Cael at least usually wrestles his full lineup for the big duals

[BAC]

On 1/2/2025 at 3:37 PM, Hillbilly Jim said:

Key word is incentivize--or remove disincentives.  One thing that would help is a system that incentivizes WINS--and increases that incentive for QUALITY WINS.  The issue now is that losses--particularly bad losses to low ranked guys or stud redshirt true freshman without much ranking--is a killer.  Further, if you have a high ranking, you don't need to do much to keep it.  Why not incentivize wins and quality wins--don't punish losses at all?  Just seed based on who has the most winning weighted for quality.  This way guys will be encouraged to get as many wins as they can--particularly the quality wins--and no downside for losing.  Put in some guardrails for allowable number of matches so guys don't wrestle too much.  Guys will want the matches and the ducking will decrease.  Just a thought.....

This is a pretty good idea.  I'm all for having a dual tournament, and/or having in-season team performance count toward points at nationals, but those ideas keep getting killed.  Maybe tweaking the seeding process at NCAAs is way to increase the number and quality of wrestlers' competitions.  

[Caveira]

3 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

Duals don't matter and neither do tournaments....we need some leadership, preferably out of Cael, but the current model is good for him and horrible for the sport. 

I made a comment in another thread.  Similar (imo) to your comment.   I said something like 

psu / Cael is responsible for the modern normalization of ducking.   Not that this is “ducking ducking” but it is a form of it.   Reducing any fan based dependency on big Xmas tourneys …. Or killing the national duals….. or conference default shenanigans….. or legit ducking.    I think Carl started the Trend and it is making the fan aspect for this sport worse.   
 

is the ncaa tourney my Super Bowl.  Yes.  It’s amazing.  It’s the best weekend of the year.   Is the decline of midlands scuffle cklv and the national duals sh$tty.   Yes it is.  It is sh$itty.    
 

are psu fans gonna say.  Bla bla shut it he’s great and king.  Yes they are.   Is that good for the sport.  I’m not sure it is.  
 

Someone (psu fan) argued scheduling rando schools at the legit bottom of the division 1 tree are good for the sport because their 3 fans appreciate it.    That is a problem.    

Edited Saturday at 12:52 AM by Caveira

[wrestle87]

This is really timely, because this is the first time in a really long time that I couldn't give half a rat fart about what happens through most of the year.

Is PSU good? Yes.

Is Okie State an interesting story line? Yes, maybe, hopefully...

But entirely to the point of what @Hillbilly Jim said, we have 4 months of season that really serve no purpose at this point besides...anything.

The regular season simply doesn't matter anymore, at all. And coaches recognize this.  We all also know that wrestling is a terribly punishing sport, and if you make it to the point of being a meaningful part of a D1 roster, your likely have hopes for wrestling beyond the NCAA on an international stage.  

We are seeing that, if athletes remain injury free, they can continue to compete well into their mid 30's.  IF they stay injury free.

Iowa-grinding yourself into oblivion by age 20 isn't the path forward, and it also turns out that it removes the fun from the sport, and hinders peak performance.

This is why athletes are checking out of this.

Also, important to note, the de facto college season isn't 4 months, it's more like 11 months long for the very best athletes.

If you go to a top D1 team and you AA and compete for a title, you are also expected to make at least an age group world team and be competitive on the world stage.  Age group and senior world medals are part and parcel of the RTC model.  

This is not a bad thing by any stretch, US wrestling has improved enormously since the implementing RTC's, but managing milage really matters.

So, this might just be the price we have to pay for more spring, summer, and early fall success and excitement.  Regular season folkstyle is just a snoozefest because...folkstyle is less important than it used to be even to college programs.