With all of this talk about to gap from 197-285

[Caveira]

52 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

My opinion is well known.

I want our weights to line up with UWW's weights.

I didn't include boxing because they have 42 weight classes and it is less like wrestling than MMA (UFC) is.

Broadening the discussion doesn't and does help both sides depending on who you use from recent memory.

Jon Jones or Ryan Bader.

One proves it doesn't matter, although he did bulk in to the weight class.

The other proved it didn't matter until he ran in to a guy who was clearly too large for him.

Edit: Weigh-in rules are quite different, too - two hours versus ~36+ hours...

Ha.   AI agrees….  Just cut the 20 lbs like the rest of us…..    

Why does boxing not have a 220lb weight class: 

Boxing currently doesn't have a 220-pound weight class because the existing weight divisions, particularly the cruiserweight class which sits above 200 pounds, are designed to create relatively even matchups between fighters of similar size, and adding a 220-pound class could potentially create unnecessary divisions and dilute the talent pool within that weight range; most fighters naturally falling in that weight range would likely compete in the cruiserweight class instead.

[nhs67]

1 hour ago, Caveira said:

Ha.   AI agrees….  Just cut the 20 lbs like the rest of us…..    

Why does boxing not have a 220lb weight class: 

Boxing currently doesn't have a 220-pound weight class because the existing weight divisions, particularly the cruiserweight class which sits above 200 pounds, are designed to create relatively even matchups between fighters of similar size, and adding a 220-pound class could potentially create unnecessary divisions and dilute the talent pool within that weight range; most fighters naturally falling in that weight range would likely compete in the cruiserweight class instead.

A ) AI agrees?  You should have stuck with using your own opinion.  Your opinion holds much more value to me in a discussion type manner than any manner of AI might.  Also, it isn't AI - it's a computer program that scrapes the internet for the most statistically logical answer.  It isn't an actual opinion of some AI think computer.  I would think that you wouldn't need the opinion of some fake machine for validation.

B ) I came up in an era when people I knew and actually trained with destroyed their lives over cutting weight, up to and including death.  I wrestled 134lbs when I weighed about 140-145lbs typically.  I was not the norm.  Our 126lber weighed as much, if not more than me, quite often.  That is why I don't want anybody cutting too much weight.  I am a big advocator to not cut weight.  If you over the next weight class up (145lbs going 133lbs, for example), you should not be going 133lbs.  The long term effects could be lethal.

C ) I am okay with my opinion on needing new weight classes being different than yours or anyone else's opinion.   I still would prefer we align with the international weights.  I think we would see more wrestlers give the senior level a go - at all weights.  I also think that we might find more 'gems' that are just better at MFS than they are collegiate folkstyle.

D ) Why are you still using boxing?  We are more like Judo, Jits, or MMA than Boxing in most every regard.  Hand speed matters a lot more in boxing than any other sport.  There is a reason that chonkers (sans Fury who is ~6'9" with the reach to go with) don't often thrive at heavyweight.  Slow hands.

[Gene Mills Fan]

14 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

A ) AI agrees?  You should have stuck with using your own opinion.  Your opinion holds much more value to me in a discussion type manner than any manner of AI might.  Also, it isn't AI - it's a computer program that scrapes the internet for the most statistically logical answer.  It isn't an actual opinion of some AI think computer.  I would think that you wouldn't need the opinion of some fake machine for validation.

B ) I came up in an era when people I knew and actually trained with destroyed their lives over cutting weight, up to and including death.  I wrestled 134lbs when I weighed about 140-145lbs typically.  I was not the norm.  Our 126lber weighed as much, if not more than me, quite often.  That is why I don't want anybody cutting too much weight.  I am a big advocator to not cut weight.  If you over the next weight class up (145lbs going 133lbs, for example), you should not be going 133lbs.  The long term effects could be lethal.

C ) I am okay with my opinion on needing new weight classes being different than yours or anyone else's opinion.   I still would prefer we align with the international weights.  I think we would see more wrestlers give the senior level a go - at all weights.  I also think that we might find more 'gems' that are just better at MFS than they are collegiate folkstyle.

D ) Why are you still using boxing?  We are more like Judo, Jits, or MMA than Boxing in most every regard.  Hand speed matters a lot more in boxing than any other sport.  There is a reason that chonkers (sans Fury who is ~6'9" with the reach to go with) don't often thrive at heavyweight.  Slow hands.

I agree to not follow Boxings lead or dieing marketing approach. I am a fan and haven't watched a boxing match in 15 years. Is boxing a NCAA sport with thousands of students athletes that need some consideration? 

[BruceyB]

3 hours ago, nhs67 said:

That is why I don't want anybody cutting too much weight.  I am a big advocator to not cut weight.  If you over the next weight class up (145lbs going 133lbs, for example), you should not be going 133lbs.  The long term effects could be lethal.

Many of the opponents of the 197/285 keep talking about "cutting" as if these 197s are walking around at 220+ and "cutting" weight to get to 197. If you weigh 220, and follow a diet plan, most guys will be able to lose 10-15 pounds via a healthy diet, and then are only "cutting" around 8-12 pounds. These guys can lose 8+ pounds of water in a practice.. 

I'm actually curious to get @bnwtwg's input on this. You said you cut from, IIRC, 234 to 197, I'm guessing 234 was where you were before you started the descent to 197. During the season how big would you get between weigh-ins? I'm sure you were making a harder descent to 197 than just about anyone is these days.

The vast majority of todays wrestlers aren't doing it like we were 15+ years ago. I'd assume most D1 athletic departments have a full time dietician, and guys aren't yo-yoing their weight like Hendricks gorging on Little Caesar's in 2005. In the older days, there was quite honestly, a pride in how much weight was cut. In most interviews today where guys discuss their weight, it sounds like most guys never get more than 5 pounds over during the season.

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, BruceyB said:

I'm actually curious to get @bnwtwg's input on this. You said you cut from, IIRC, 234 to 197, I'm guessing 234 was where you were before you started the descent to 197. During the season how big would you get between weigh-ins? I'm sure you were making a harder descent to 197 than just about anyone is these days.

Do you want my actual input or do you just want to remind everyone again on page 6 how good I had it back in my glory days?

But I'll bite. Remember the part where I said I had a six pack? That is relevant because ab muscles aren't visible until ~12% body fat. I'm not comparing my cut to the real hardcore old days with guys like Barry Davis, but I came up in the old school methods and the expectation if I wanted to be part of the team was that I needed to pull my weight (figuratively and literally). It was untenable after two years - I grew another inch after high school and hitting the college weight room did on the scale.

[1032004]

On 1/3/2025 at 11:05 AM, bnwtwg said:

I was substantially worse against top-tier competition (Mocco, Rowlands, Lowney etc)

So between this and your Jacob Warner comment, your entire argument is that if there was also a ~220 class, some guys might place a couple spots higher.

Oh and btw Rowlands weighed 220 (source - 

 

 

Edited 23 hours ago by 1032004

[Gene Mills Fan]

On 1/5/2025 at 9:36 AM, bnwtwg said:

If light heavy is where it's at then why did Tony Cassioppi go 97kg for the trials? Here are some key bullet points to factor in:

1) per this thread, a heavyweight between 235-245 is optimal.

2) Gable Steveson was not going to be at OTT.

3) 97kg is ruled by an all-timer.

4) at his NCAA largest, Cassioppi was regularly weighing over 260 so the long-term cut was 47 pounds

I believe 97kg is 213 /-1/2 pounds.     so looks like he was trying to get to light heavy. Thanks for more evidence. Maybe with the plan of going 197 before he was suspended because he may be too small for Kerk. 

[1032004]

2 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

I believe 97kg is 213 /-1/2 pounds.     so looks like he was trying to get to light heavy. Thanks for more evidence. Maybe with the plan of going 197 before he was suspended because he may be too small for Kerk. 

Evidence of what?  Cassioppi was a 3x AA in 3 NCAA tournaments at heavyweight and lost in the first round of the trials against someone that hadn’t even won a college match at that point and is currently 5-5 at 197 this season.  If anything he helps prove how much easier heavyweight is than 197.

[Gene Mills Fan]

9 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Evidence of what?  Cassioppi was a 3x AA in 3 NCAA tournaments at heavyweight and lost in the first round of the trials against someone that hadn’t even won a college match at that point and is currently 5-5 at 197 this season.  If anything he helps prove how much easier heavyweight is than 197.

I agree heavyweight is easer, But He and every other kid who dreams wants to be a national champion. 

[Gene Mills Fan]

Just now, Gene Mills Fan said:

I agree heavyweight is easer, But He and every other kid who dreams wants to be a national champion. 

did you ever wrestle anyone 50 pounds heavier than you? Asking for a friend

[BruceyB]

29 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Do you want my actual input or do you just want to remind everyone again on page 6 how good I had it back in my glory days?

But I'll bite. Remember the part where I said I had a six pack? That is relevant because ab muscles aren't visible until ~12% body fat. I'm not comparing my cut to the real hardcore old days with guys like Barry Davis, but I came up in the old school methods and the expectation if I wanted to be part of the team was that I needed to pull my weight (figuratively and literally). It was untenable after two years - I grew another inch after high school and hitting the college weight room did on the scale.

I was being genuine. Once you were making 197 how high would your weight get to after eating/hydrating? I'm curious because without a doubt the initial descent to 197 would be a lot of work and difficult, but once you made the weight, how much were you consistently cutting from that point?

[bnwtwg]

22 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

I was being genuine. Once you were making 197 how high would your weight get to after eating/hydrating? I'm curious because without a doubt the initial descent to 197 would be a lot of work and difficult, but once you made the weight, how much were you consistently cutting from that point?

12-20 per week depending on workout/meet schedule, discipline, and how exquisite the shower water tasted that morning

[Caveira]

9 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

12-20 per week depending on workout/meet schedule, discipline, and how exquisite the shower water tasted that morning

Man water tasted so goooooood when cutting.   

[BruceyB]

1 minute ago, bnwtwg said:

12-20 per week depending on workout/meet schedule, discipline, and how exquisite the shower water tasted that morning

I imagine 12 wasn't too horrible, but 20 would be a pull. As a tweener, do you think that adjusting the weights to 175, 190, 210, and 285 would solve the problem? Or would it just create different issues?

Also, I tossed out the idea and would enjoy your feedback, how do you feel about 285 being brought down to 265 to lower the weight discrepancy?

[BruceyB]

Just now, Caveira said:

Man water tasted so goooooood when cutting.   

I remember vividly going to the kitchen and wanting to "wet my mouth" by taking one swig out of the bottle of orange juice only to have my body instinctively steal five or six large gulps.

[Gene Mills Fan]

8 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

I remember vividly going to the kitchen and wanting to "wet my mouth" by taking one swig out of the bottle of orange juice only to have my body instinctively steal five or six large gulps.

how about coming home from practice day before weigh in; pound and half or two over knowing when you put that water in your mouth you can't swallow it or you have put the rubber suit on and hit the road. 

[Caveira]

26 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

I imagine 12 wasn't too horrible, but 20 would be a pull. As a tweener, do you think that adjusting the weights to 175, 190, 210, and 285 would solve the problem? Or would it just create different issues?

Also, I tossed out the idea and would enjoy your feedback, how do you feel about 285 being brought down to 265 to lower the weight discrepancy?

IMO.  Unless all weights are linearly distributed you will always have a tweener situation.   If the arguable safe cap to get to 197 is 220…. If there was a 210 now the new tweener is 233.   If it’s moved to 220.   Now it’s 243.   Cutting to get to a “better” lower weight exists for those who want to….  That’s where my net neutral idea comes from.  For every + you create a - .    

[Gene Mills Fan]

1 hour ago, Caveira said:

IMO.  Unless all weights are linearly distributed you will always have a tweener situation.   If the arguable safe cap to get to 197 is 220…. If there was a 210 now the new tweener is 233.   If it’s moved to 220.   Now it’s 243.   Cutting to get to a “better” lower weight exists for those who want to….  That’s where my net neutral idea comes from.  For every + you create a - .    

If theres only ten weights align with freestyle. At least its a bit closer to fair for everyone and the transition from NCAAs to team trials is linear.  

[Gene Mills Fan]

1 minute ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

If theres only ten weights align with freestyle. At least its a bit closer to fair for everyone and the transition from NCAAs to team trials is linear.  

174 190 213 265

[1032004]

42 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

174 190 213 265

I don’t really agree with lowering 285, but am good with the others 

[Piper]

I think we should eliminate weight classes.

It would remove the two worst things in wrestling; weight cutting and cry baby manlets.

[BruceyB]

41 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I don’t really agree with lowering 285, but am good with the others 

As someone that typically is on your side, what is the dispute here? Everyone makes dietary restrictions in wrestling other than 99% of 285s. Is it so wrong to say that if you want to compete that you can't weigh over 265? Name one wrestler in the history of 285 that couldn't make 265 following a diet plan.

 

1 hour ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

If theres only ten weights align with freestyle. At least its a bit closer to fair for everyone and the transition from NCAAs to team trials is linear.  

Out of every class of NCAA wrestlers, less than 1% ever make a world team.. But we should change the weights of college to align with the <1%? Off the top of my head, the only two wrestlers to make a world team while still eligible for NCAA wrestling in the last 15 years were Snyder and Fix. The college athletes that rep the US in freestyle wrestling is probably less than 1 in 1000 based on statistics. @Husker_Du already established this point. But sure, the weight classes are the problem.

[bnwtwg]

55 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

As someone that typically is on your side, what is the dispute here? Everyone makes dietary restrictions in wrestling other than 99% of 285s. Is it so wrong to say that if you want to compete that you can't weigh over 265? Name one wrestler in the history of 285 that couldn't make 265 following a diet plan.

 

Out of every class of NCAA wrestlers, less than 1% ever make a world team.. But we should change the weights of college to align with the <1%? Off the top of my head, the only two wrestlers to make a world team while still eligible for NCAA wrestling in the last 15 years were Snyder and Fix. The college athletes that rep the US in freestyle wrestling is probably less than 1 in 1000 based on statistics. @Husker_Du already established this point. But sure, the weight classes are the problem.

Herbert, Dustin Schlatter, Yianni, Zane, J'Den, Steveson are six off the top of my tongue to make a team while in college. I'm sure there were others but I'm too lazy to google year by year results.

Yianni and Fix made it again for a 2021 asterisk world team which I did not count in my comment.

[Gene Mills Fan]

53 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

As someone that typically is on your side, what is the dispute here? Everyone makes dietary restrictions in wrestling other than 99% of 285s. Is it so wrong to say that if you want to compete that you can't weigh over 265? Name one wrestler in the history of 285 that couldn't make 265 following a diet plan.

 

Out of every class of NCAA wrestlers, less than 1% ever make a world team.. But we should change the weights of college to align with the <1%? Off the top of my head, the only two wrestlers to make a world team while still eligible for NCAA wrestling in the last 15 years were Snyder and Fix. The college athletes that rep the US in freestyle wrestling is probably less than 1 in 1000 based on statistics. @Husker_Du already established this point. But sure, the weight classes are the problem.

Not a problem or a cure, Practicality, more exciting wrestling. We've recognized the category you named it.

Do we just keep saying f... the tweeners. As long as there's medals at 96kg college should support athletes training for these medals.

[1032004]

1 hour ago, BruceyB said:

As someone that typically is on your side, what is the dispute here? Everyone makes dietary restrictions in wrestling other than 99% of 285s. Is it so wrong to say that if you want to compete that you can't weigh over 265? Name one wrestler in the history of 285 that couldn't make 265 following a diet plan.

 

There probably isn’t, but even though most 275+ pound guys could stand to lose a few pounds, we shouldn’t be encouraging weight cutting.  If guys are concerned about people leaving the sport, lowering 285 would probably cause people to leave the sport.  And considering most of the recent heavyweight champs are in the 250ish range, they don’t seem to mind having to beat up on a few fat dudes to do it.