Headgear Toss

[VakAttack]

This was straight up horsecrap.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

9 hours ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

And I'm not saying this just because I want all refs to know that ILLINI fans love them and treasure them and respect them and want the good calls in the future. Sure, that's part of it, but there's also Physics. 

I'll remember this next time I ref an Illini match!

Edited December 13 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

12 hours ago, flyingcement said:

I disagree with the boldfaced.  Most people have wrestled on a few different teams over their life - some more positive experiences than others - and that typically impacts the feeling of loyalty to that school.  Winning states indicates the relationship was likely positive and he has a far greater inclination to be biased in favor of his former team in that case.  Its not the major detail, but it is quite relevant.  

Well, none other than Cary Kolat recently said that studs and superstars  tend to donate less to programs.  The borderline guys often feel the strongest affinity for their alma maters, and are generally more grateful.  He's talking college donations, but I imagine that it would be true for high school, as well.

I am not opposed to reading "state champ" in a post or two, but it is nearly every post, so I think it is overblown.

Hey, maybe if he were only a state runner up, he wouldn't have docked Easton that point!  See how silly that is?

[ionel]

2 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I'll remember this next time I ref an Illini duel!

ftfy

[TexRef]

3 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I'll remember this next time I ref an Illini match!

Once they find out you're from Iowa they will protest every call you make! 

[KCMO2]

Hell, half the calls in a match are judgement calls (not really but you get the point).  Refs are always using discretion and their best judgement throughout a match.  If this ref can't tell that the headgear toss was in no way done in an unsportsmanlike manner, then he's failing in this aspect.  He followed the letter of the law, not the intent.

And being a past state champ could have played a role here.  He was used to being the focal point when he was on the mat.  Now maybe he feels the same way as a ref.

Edited December 13 by KCMO2

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, KCMO2 said:

Hell, half the calls in a match are judgement calls (not really but you get the point).  Refs are always using discretion and their best judgement throughout a match.  If this ref can't tell that the headgear toss was in no way done in an unsportsmanlike manner, then he's failing in this aspect.  He followed the letter of the law, not the intent.

What I hate most are refs that aren't at D1 level, they are ~2 to 3 seconds behind the action.  At CKLV only saw one guy i think any would want at NCAA tournament.  So many that were a couple seconds slow calling the td then not in position and missed the first two swipes of back points.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

15 minutes ago, ionel said:

What I hate most are refs that aren't at D1 level, they are ~2 to 3 seconds behind the action.  At CKLV only saw one guy i think any would want at NCAA tournament.  So many that were a couple seconds slow calling the td then not in position and missed the first two swipes of back points.

If we are talking high school, I would prefer refs are (a little) late on most takedown calls,  Nearfall should be called immediately though.  

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

If we are talking high school, I would prefer refs are (a little) late on most takedown calls,  Nearfall should be called immediately though.  

Yes some of these guys look like high school refs, this is D1 ... stuff happens quicker.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

5 minutes ago, ionel said:

Yes some of these guys look like high school refs, this is D1 ... stuff happens quicker.  

But crazier stuff happens in high school, which is why often you hold the takedown points a couple extra seconds.

[ionel]

1 minute ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

But crazier stuff happens in high school, which is why often you hold the takedown points a couple extra seconds.

Well this is the college board.  I guess it explains why many new refs moving up from HS look so bad.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, ionel said:

Well this is the college board.  I guess it explains why many new refs moving up from HS look so bad.  

... but it is about a high school match lol

[flyingcement]

7 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Well, none other than Cary Kolat recently said that studs and superstars  tend to donate less to programs.  The borderline guys often feel the strongest affinity for their alma maters, and are generally more grateful.  He's talking college donations, but I imagine that it would be true for high school, as well.

I am not opposed to reading "state champ" in a post or two, but it is nearly every post, so I think it is overblown.

Hey, maybe if he were only a state runner up, he wouldn't have docked Easton that point!  See how silly that is?

It's a factor but not the major factor which is what I said.  So your example above is a strawmen.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't understand my post.  But you can re-read and get another chance.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

21 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

It's a factor but not the major factor which is what I said.  So your example above is a strawmen.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't understand my post.  But you can re-read and get another chance.  

A strawmen?

[flyingcement]

1 minute ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

A strawmen?

[ionel]

18 hours ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

Why not let Physics decide?

If the wrestler just tossed his headgear, there would have been a significant arc involved. The formula for velocity in relation to gravity is v = gt where "v" is the velocity, "g" is the acceleration due to gravity (approximately 9.8 m/s² on Earth), and "t" is the time elapsed; essentially, the velocity of a falling object is calculated by multiplying the acceleration due to gravity by the time it has been falling.

Let's use an analogy. I would consider a toss to be how you throw a baseball to your three-to-five-year-old boy when playing catch. A throw is what he starts to get when he is six. At seven, he gets the heat. 

C'mon IWB it ain't that simple.  Don't forget about wind drift (fans in the gym), the gyroscopic effect of headgear rotation and the coriolis affect plus

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

2 hours ago, ionel said:

C'mon IWB it ain't that simple.  Don't forget about wind drift (fans in the gym), the gyroscopic effect of headgear rotation and the coriolis affect plus

 

The issue here is between TOSS and THROW. The rule, as written, is strict liability. If you THROW your headgear, you will be penalized. As demonstrated above, a TOSS would have an arc on it. This was a THROW, zero question about that. I would be able to convince twelve jurors of that fact, I am confident. 

This situation raises questions that we as Americans must address:

1. Are we to be a nation of rules, or shall anarchy prevail?

2. Should we not treat referees with the utmost respect, as they represent the best of us? 

On a final note related to your post, the physical laws you describe actually work against the aerodynamics of headgear. That's why you never see headgear-shaped aircraft. Those physical laws actually bolster my argument because that headgear had to work against those physical laws to maintain that much speed in the air. 

[flyingcement]

1 minute ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

 

The issue here is between TOSS and THROW. The rule, as written, is strict liability. If you THROW your headgear, you will be penalized. As demonstrated above, a TOSS would have an arc on it. This was a THROW, zero question about that. I would be able to convince twelve jurors of that fact, I am confident. 

This situation raises questions that we as Americans must address:

1. Are we to be a nation of rules, or shall anarchy prevail?

2. Should we not treat referees with the utmost respect, as they represent the best of us? 

On a final note related to your post, the physical laws you describe actually work against the aerodynamics of headgear. That's why you never see headgear-shaped aircraft. Those physical laws actually bolster my argument because that headgear had to work against those physical laws to maintain that much speed in the air. 

Referees assume both a power (very little) and a responsibility (quite a bit more).  For that they deserve respect as a profession.  But when we witness the abuse of that little bit of power in an egregious fashion, it is not a sign of disrespect to call out.  Rather, it is an attempt to hold accountable.  

[flyingcement]

And since we are a nation of rules - the referee needs to be held accountable.  We need qualitative judgments here - not a quantifiable tick box to check.  Anyone who qualitatively thinks that was a throw is utilizing highly suspicious judgment.  

[ionel]

8 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

And since we are a nation of rules - the referee needs to be held accountable.  

If a referee makes the mistake of penalizing a wrestler for a throw when it was in fact a toss then said wrestler should be allowed to throw the ref to the mat!

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

41 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

And since we are a nation of rules - the referee needs to be held accountable.  We need qualitative judgments here - not a quantifiable tick box to check.  Anyone who qualitatively thinks that was a throw is utilizing highly suspicious judgment.  

I dissent.

You have used two forms of the word "judgment" in your post, but this was not a judgment or discretionary call by the referee. He could not use his own judgment, my friend. The rule and the "situation example" both provide that in the event of a throw, there will be a penalty. 

The referee can only use his or her discretion if there is a toss. 

That didn't happen in this case. It was not a toss; it was an obvious throw. The board's and the internet's anger with this referee is misplaced. The anger should be directed at the folks who (1) wrote the rule, and (2) made it strict liability.

On behalf of this board and the internet as a whole, I want to extend the most gracious apology possible to this referee, and I want to thank him for applying the rule that he had to apply. Referees are indeed wonderful people, and we really need wonderful people to settle our disputes on the mat, and, moreover, wonderful people like him deserve the benefit of the doubt. 

[flyingcement]

20 minutes ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

I dissent.

You have used two forms of the word "judgment" in your post, but this was not a judgment or discretionary call by the referee. He could not use his own judgment, my friend. The rule and the "situation example" both provide that in the event of a throw, there will be a penalty. 

The referee can only use his or her discretion if there is a toss. 

That didn't happen in this case. It was not a toss; it was an obvious throw. The board's and the internet's anger with this referee is misplaced. The anger should be directed at the folks who (1) wrote the rule, and (2) made it strict liability.

On behalf of this board and the internet as a whole, I want to extend the most gracious apology possible to this referee, and I want to thank him for applying the rule that he had to apply. Referees are indeed wonderful people, and we really need wonderful people to settle our disputes on the mat, and, moreover, wonderful people like him deserve the benefit of the doubt. 

Wow to me I can't even begin to understand your point of view honestly.  I approach the world in a much different way.  No disrespect to you intended.  I just deeply disagree and tend to spend a lot of my energy in this world fighting against the letter of the law mentality (in favor of spirit of the law) for the improvement of the communities of which I am a member

[Gus]

2 hours ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

I dissent.

You have used two forms of the word "judgment" in your post, but this was not a judgment or discretionary call by the referee. He could not use his own judgment, my friend. The rule and the "situation example" both provide that in the event of a throw, there will be a penalty. 

The referee can only use his or her discretion if there is a toss. 

That didn't happen in this case. It was not a toss; it was an obvious throw. The board's and the internet's anger with this referee is misplaced. The anger should be directed at the folks who (1) wrote the rule, and (2) made it strict liability.

On behalf of this board and the internet as a whole, I want to extend the most gracious apology possible to this referee, and I want to thank him for applying the rule that he had to apply. Referees are indeed wonderful people, and we really need wonderful people to settle our disputes on the mat, and, moreover, wonderful people like him deserve the benefit of the doubt. 

Actually the rule is addressed in a way that a headgear tossed toward a coaches bench, tossed to a coach or toward the edge of the mat is not a penalty. 

Edited December 14 by Gus

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

1 hour ago, flyingcement said:

Wow to me I can't even begin to understand your point of view honestly.  I approach the world in a much different way.  No disrespect to you intended.  I just deeply disagree and tend to spend a lot of my energy in this world fighting against the letter of the law mentality (in favor of spirit of the law) for the improvement of the communities of which I am a member

Different strokestyles for different folkstyles. 

To put it all as plainly as possible, the referee did what the rule forced him to do. 

 

[flyingcement]

Just now, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

Different strokestyles for different folkstyles. 

To put it all as plainly as possible, the referee did what the rule forced him to do. 

 

I appreciate having a diverse set of perspectives here.  I just thought it was clear to me that based on both spirit and letter, that the referee made the wrong call to me.  Ultimately, I suppose that each of our own opinions are less relevant than the collective.  I don't have an accurate way to gauge that consensus, but if twitter reactions or reactions on this board are any indication, it would seem to be in favor of the wrestler from Easton.