The Brands'should have trained the team

[billyhoyle]

16 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I agree. I think the best realistic solution is to implement more freestyle concepts in to folkstyle. A step out would be a great way to start

The most important concept to add is neutral exposure points. American wrestlers scamble without caring whether they expose their back-the result is most lose the ability to scramble effectively internationally. There is still tons of scrambling in freestyle, but it’s just a different type of scrambling. We’ve seen folkstyle move towards this by limiting the time a wrestler can have his back exposed before it counting as a TD, but we need to go all the way with this rule. We would see absolutely epic sequences at NCAAs with neutral exposure points counting, and that alone would lead to USA becoming better than Russia.
 

We have an order of magnitude more athletes competing in wrestling than Russia, Iran, and Japan. Wehave significantly more resources at the youth and developmental level dedicated to it. There is zero reason the US should continue to be where it has been.
 

Par terre is important too, but not nearly as much anymore. 

Edited Saturday at 08:01 PM by billyhoyle

[gimpeltf]

A problem with adding step outs to the current folkstyle rules is that currently you aren't OB until both wrestlers are OB. So who's fault would it be? This mostly would affect neutral positions so you could probably adjust neutral OB rules appropriately such that unless there's action towards a score they are OB upon first foot out from neutral standing.

[scourge165]

1 minute ago, gimpeltf said:

A problem with adding step outs to the current folkstyle rules is that currently you aren't OB until both wrestlers are OB. So who's fault would it be? This mostly would affect neutral positions so you could probably adjust neutral OB rules appropriately such that unless there's action towards a score they are OB upon first foot out from neutral standing.

Yeah, you're just going to go back to the old rules that limited the action and scoring on the edge. One Olympics where we don't win a gold, but possibly medal at 5 of the 6 weights isn't a good reason to change College Wrestling to Freestyle. 

I also don't think NIL is going to cut the number of programs. I think the demise of the sport is greatly exaggerated, the dominance of a couple of teams is how College has always been, it's not new. 

[billyhoyle]

1 minute ago, scourge165 said:

Yeah, you're just going to go back to the old rules that limited the action and scoring on the edge. One Olympics where we don't win a gold, but possibly medal at 5 of the 6 weights isn't a good reason to change College Wrestling to Freestyle. 

I also don't think NIL is going to cut the number of programs. I think the demise of the sport is greatly exaggerated, the dominance of a couple of teams is how College has always been, it's not new. 

Russia didn’t send their best athletes. How many medals do we have if they did? Do we think Iran, Japan, and Russia should all be better than the US?
 

Look at the TV ratings of NCAAs by year if you don’t believe that there are serious problems. 

[Eagle26]

6 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

A problem with adding step outs to the current folkstyle rules is that currently you aren't OB until both wrestlers are OB. So who's fault would it be? This mostly would affect neutral positions so you could probably adjust neutral OB rules appropriately such that unless there's action towards a score they are OB upon first foot out from neutral standing.

You simply use the step out rule as it is in freestyle.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

Just now, billyhoyle said:

Russia didn’t send their best athletes. How many medals do we have if they did? Do we think Iran, Japan, and Russia should all be better than the US?
 

Look at the TV ratings of NCAAs by year if you don’t believe that there are serious problems. 

I think Zhamalov may be better than Sidakov, at least in training. Taz. Muskaev. etc. 
 

NCAA rating tough to figure with streaming  

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 minute ago, Eagle26 said:

You simply use the step out rule as it is in freestyle.

So if I want to cut you, I let you get to your feet, ride you to the edge, release you and then push you out. 1 escape for you, 1 step out point for me. I lose nothing. Now I get my 3 point takedown. Wow. Major shift in scoring. 

[Eagle26]

10 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

The most important concept to add is neutral exposure points. American wrestlers scamble without caring whether they expose their back-the result is most lose the ability to scramble effectively internationally. There is still tons of scrambling in freestyle, but it’s just a different type of scrambling. We’ve seen folkstyle move towards this by limiting the time a wrestler can have his back exposed before it counting as a TD, but we need to go all the way with this rule. We would see absolutely epic sequences at NCAAs with neutral exposure points counting, and that alone would lead to USA becoming better than Russia.
 

We have an order of magnitude more athletes competing in wrestling than Russia, Iran, and Japan. Wehave significantly more resources at the youth and developmental level dedicated to it. There is zero reason the US should continue to be where it has been.
 

Par terre is important too, but not nearly as much anymore. 

I agree but at that point, I think you just need to go full freestyle. The main difference between free and folk is control vs exposure. If you change that, you totally change the sport. I’d be in favor of it, but I know we are in the minority 

[gimpeltf]

4 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

You simply use the step out rule as it is in freestyle.

Which means you can't use current OB rules

[billyhoyle]

2 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I agree but at that point, I think you just need to go full freestyle. The main difference between free and folk is control vs exposure. If you change that, you totally change the sport. I’d be in favor of it, but I know we are in the minority 

Yeah, the folkstyle fans just want to root for their schools and then ignore the athletes once they graduate.

[Eagle26]

1 minute ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

So if I want to cut you, I let you get to your feet, ride you to the edge, release you and then push you out. 1 escape for you, 1 step out point for me. I lose nothing. Now I get my 3 point takedown. Wow. Major shift in scoring. 

I think that would be tougher than it sounds and the takedown is irrelevant here. Basically, you could say I got to my feet and the exchange was 1-1 instead of 1-0. I’m ok with that

[Eagle26]

3 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Which means you can't use current OB rules

Of course

[Hammerlock3]

this whole cinnabon thing was easier than i thought

[Weight of the World]

First off the NCAA's sells out every year.  (Attendance is not down, you are crazy). I've gone to 18 NCAA's it's an unbelievable experience.

Freestyle is not ever going to be popular in US.  The style is too judge mental.

If we were Russia David Taylor would of been sent and he would of won gold.

If we still had 10 weights Arujau wins gold for sure.

We got out coached by Japan at 57 and 74, no other way to look at it.  

Sometimes you just can't be the best.  I think we are a little crazy to always expect that we are.

 

 

 

 

[billyhoyle]

6 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I agree but at that point, I think you just need to go full freestyle. The main difference between free and folk is control vs exposure. If you change that, you totally change the sport. I’d be in favor of it, but I know we are in the minority 

Why? You can keep the “control” aspect of top bottom once an athlete completes a takedown. Just don’t count exposure points until an escape has been awarded. You can even keep riding time! 

[PortaJohn]

9 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

Russia didn’t send their best athletes. How many medals do we have if they did? Do we think Iran, Japan, and Russia should all be better than the US?

Who gets knocked out?  If anything Snyder gets the #4 seed and he's wrestling in the finals against Taz or Sadulaev.  Dake gets the 2 seed and wrestles Sidakov in the finals.  Theres 2 wrestlers right there that benefit with the Russians in.  No one at 86kg that Brooks couldn't have beaten.  Zain finds himself in a similar spot and Spencer proved he can hang with any Russian in the world

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I think that would be tougher than it sounds and the takedown is irrelevant here. Basically, you could say I got to my feet and the exchange was 1-1 instead of 1-0. I’m ok with that

I ref. It happens all the time, unintentionally. And that’s before it’s incentivized. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

8 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

Who gets knocked out?  If anything Snyder gets the #4 seed and he's wrestling in the finals against Taz or Sadulaev.  Dake gets the 2 seed and wrestles Sidakov in the finals.  Theres 2 wrestlers right there that benefit with the Russians in.  No one at 86kg that Brooks couldn't have beaten.  Zain finds himself in a similar spot and Spencer proved he can hang with any Russian in the world

I’d be concerned about Uzbek 74 kg but otherwise I agree. 
 

PS also Snyder still with Taz. Saduleev is 7 seed. 

Edited Saturday at 08:24 PM by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[billyhoyle]

5 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I’d be concerned about Uzbek 74 kg but otherwise I agree. 
 

PS also Snyder still with Taz. Saduleev is 7 seed. 

Oh you mean that guy who won gold convincingly? 
 

Adding 6 medal contenders to the field would have made it more difficult to medal. And Russia has been sending athletes to other countries for many cycles- it didn’t seem to be at any greater rate than they normally do this time. 

[PortaJohn]

2 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I’d be concerned about Uzbek 74 kg but otherwise I agree. 
 

PS also Snyder still with Taz. Saduleev is 7 seed. 

Good point on Sad  with his 2023 result and not being able to wrestle Euros in February.  So Snyder still finds himself in the same situation

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

Oh you mean that guy who won gold convincingly? 
 

Adding 6 medal contenders to the field would have made it more difficult to medal. And Russia has been sending athletes to other countries for many cycles- it didn’t seem to be at any greater rate than they normally do this time. 

But…. This crew of exports is their most successful. 2023 was looked at as a disaster by Russia largely because of this. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

Good point on Sad  with his 2023 result and not being able to wrestle Euros in February.  So Snyder still finds himself in the same situation

Although 2024 Azarpira could be better than 2024 neck surgery Sad. Who knows? 

[wrestle87]

If we just had a freestyle season at the college level, we would innovate and grow immensely.  And why not?  They spend all year splitting time between styles.  A freestyle season organized at the program level would move things in the right direction. 

Clearly it works for US women.

Also, Greco, just…somebody please help.

I love greco, it was my favorite style to wrestle, but Jesus christ we are now better as a country at olympic weightlifting than we are at Greco…that’s bad.  

[PortaJohn]

Just now, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Although 2024 Azarpira could be better than 2024 neck surgery Sad. Who knows? 

Hopefully we see him wrestle again some day.  Does anyone know what the IOC found that proved he was in support of the invasion of Ukraine?

[billyhoyle]

7 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

But…. This crew of exports is their most successful. 2023 was looked at as a disaster by Russia largely because of this. 

Taymazov was pretty good. So was Sharifov.