Proposed Sport Roster Limits- starting 2025-26 Season

[Fletcher]

2 hours ago, cowcards said:

Here's the most straight forward I can make it:

There is no longer a cap on the number of scholarships a team can give out. There is however, a cap on the number of roster spots, which is now 30. That means a school can give out anywhere between 0 and 30 full scholarships now.

But, because every other sport is getting and increase and Title IX implications, schools will now starting ranking sports and diverting funds to the sports they rank the most important (most likely football, M/W Basketball, and other W sports that balance out football). 

More programs are going to have to cut guys to get to the 30 limit than those that will give more scholarships. That will spread around guys to different programs but I fear the overall number of scholarships being given will drop. This may also trickle down to the D2, D3, NAIA, NJCAA level as some of those guys may turn that way. 

Well funded programs are going to get better and separate themselves more because they will offer more scholarships. Programs that aren't ranked very high on priority by their school will probably lose scholarships. Programs that relied on high roster numbers and didn't provide very many scholarships will be in trouble now.

This will in no way help any program other than those that want, and can provide, more scholarships. I think it will end up turning into an all or nothing for programs where they either get a good number of scholarships or none at all.

So if this ends up being the direction programs go in, which programs currently offering scholarships may go down to zero - so they can be used for football instead? it would probably be programs that currently are not at 9.9 (an indicator that the school already doesn't value wrestling) and obviously are serious about football.

Stanford? Pitt? Northwestern? Most other Big Ten teams are probably safe and some may even increase their scholarships - PSU, tOSU, Iowa.

[flyingcement]

 

[Idaho]

Other factors will be endowments that programs have as well as donors who specifically give to scholarship funds. Either way, scholarships could be what

The number of programs that can actually afford to give out 30 scholarships will be the ones that are already buying up talent and now have another avenue to buy talent. 

I know that teams have been cutting rosters down since last spring - not sure if they anticipated this or if it was just something that needed to be done financially anyway. 

We may see an increase in NAIA and D2 due to guys being cut from rosters and not having a place to go that can offer a scholarship. 

 

[Idaho]

8 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

 

Nothing like the NCAA putting the massive squeeze on everyone because of a problem they created. 

[cowcards]

1 hour ago, Idaho said:

Other factors will be endowments that programs have as well as donors who specifically give to scholarship funds. Either way, scholarships could be what

The number of programs that can actually afford to give out 30 scholarships will be the ones that are already buying up talent and now have another avenue to buy talent. 

I know that teams have been cutting rosters down since last spring - not sure if they anticipated this or if it was just something that needed to be done financially anyway. 

We may see an increase in NAIA and D2 due to guys being cut from rosters and not having a place to go that can offer a scholarship. 

 

Good mention on the endowments/fundraising. This is probably going to be what most schools tell programs. "You can have as many scholarships as you want, as long as you raise the money for them." 

[billyhoyle]

5 hours ago, Idaho said:

Are you talking about school enrollment (from your previous post- "Schools that have trouble filling enrollment aren't great places to go to school") or are you talking about wrestling roster size? 

 

5 hours ago, Camel Wrestling Fan said:

According to the NCES:

• Undergraduate college enrollment increased from 1985-2010 at a rate of about 2.2% each year. In 2010, enrollment peaked at about 18.1 million students.
• Since 2011, enrollment has decreased at a rate of about 1.5% each year.

I’m curious which schools that have D1 wrestling teams currently have trouble filling enrollment at the school itself. There was an argument that decreasing the roster size could cost universities money because of decreased enrollment, but very few D1 programs fit this description (to my knowledge). 
 

This was the case at scam universities like Grand Canyon, and I know it is as some smaller NAIA schools that really don’t offer much academically, but I think most D1 schools are more established. 

[Idaho]

9 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

 

I’m curious which schools that have D1 wrestling teams currently have trouble filling enrollment at the school itself. There was an argument that decreasing the roster size could cost universities money because of decreased enrollment, but very few D1 programs fit this description (to my knowledge). 
 

This was the case at scam universities like Grand Canyon, and I know it is as some smaller NAIA schools that really don’t offer much academically, but I think most D1 schools are more established. 

Ok gotcha... I would think that increasing the rosters of all the other more "popular" sports would have more positive impact on an enrollment than the decrease in other less attended sports would. Iowa usually has a large roster, so cutting back for them could be tough, but people are going to the Iowa home meets regardless (IMO) .   Now, on a related note, I would agree that the last few years have seen some enrollment drops in higher education in general. I have been in the education world a long time and now more than ever, I encourage kids to go to community college for a trade that interests them  and then get a paid internship.  Many see what's going on with expensive tuition, massive loans, online classes and a general decline in academics at universities, and they are seeking other avenues. 

[billyhoyle]

44 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Ok gotcha... I would think that increasing the rosters of all the other more "popular" sports would have more positive impact on an enrollment than the decrease in other less attended sports would. Iowa usually has a large roster, so cutting back for them could be tough, but people are going to the Iowa home meets regardless (IMO) .   Now, on a related note, I would agree that the last few years have seen some enrollment drops in higher education in general. I have been in the education world a long time and now more than ever, I encourage kids to go to community college for a trade that interests them  and then get a paid internship.  Many see what's going on with expensive tuition, massive loans, online classes and a general decline in academics at universities, and they are seeking other avenues. 

This is true for a lot of smaller schools. But getting a degree from Iowa, Illinois, Oklahoma, etc, is still a great investment. And schools like that aren’t in need of more enrollment. 

[AgaveMaria]

Few schools will be funding 30 scholarships for wrestling.

Limiting the numbers in the room to 30(if I understand this correctly) can only hurt some programs. Weight specific sports like wrestling are much more difficult to manage to field a full team. We are more likely so see a talented walk on show up to make a roster than a lot of other sports. Why limit the number who can be in the room?

This is like the NCAA limiting the total number of Football players at team could have. Hurt schools like Nebraska that often had more than double some of the teams they played.

 

Edited July 28 by AgaveMaria

[Idaho]

1 hour ago, AgaveMaria said:

Why limit the number who can be in the room?

From a resources standpoint, more wrestlers cost more money. You are using resources, man power and coaching time on wrestlers who  will never see the lineup. Strength coach, trainer, tutors/advisors, etc. will spend time on 30 athletes vs. 40 athletes. The same would be true of the coaching aspect. 

[Dark Energy]

23 hours ago, cowcards said:

Here's the most straight forward I can make it:

There is no longer a cap on the number of scholarships a team can give out. There is however, a cap on the number of roster spots, which is now 30. That means a school can give out anywhere between 0 and 30 full scholarships now.

But, because every other sport is getting and increase and Title IX implications, schools will now starting ranking sports and diverting funds to the sports they rank the most important (most likely football, M/W Basketball, and other W sports that balance out football). 

More programs are going to have to cut guys to get to the 30 limit than those that will give more scholarships. That will spread around guys to different programs but I fear the overall number of scholarships being given will drop. This may also trickle down to the D2, D3, NAIA, NJCAA level as some of those guys may turn that way. 

Well funded programs are going to get better and separate themselves more because they will offer more scholarships. Programs that aren't ranked very high on priority by their school will probably lose scholarships. Programs that relied on high roster numbers and didn't provide very many scholarships will be in trouble now.

This will in no way help any program other than those that want, and can provide, more scholarships. I think it will end up turning into an all or nothing for programs where they either get a good number of scholarships or none at all.

Thank you!!  I appreciate this.  Very clear.

I did see mention of an exception on 30 person limit if not sharing revenue or something like that?  

Can you clarify this?  Is this a decision for all sports at school?  For example can the school say will follow the rule for Football but will not with wrestling?

Can school find a way to give  scholarships and NOT abide by the 30 person limit?  And so, can they give any number of scholarships?  I’m going to extremes to understand the limits.  Say I donated $100M to a school and it is just for wrestling and field hockey scholarships … can they do something to actually give 50 scholarships to wrestlers and 50 to field hockey players and thumb their nose at these rules above?  

[Idaho]

59 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

Thank you!!  I appreciate this.  Very clear.

I did see mention of an exception on 30 person limit if not sharing revenue or something like that?  

Can you clarify this?  Is this a decision for all sports at school?  For example can the school say will follow the rule for Football but will not with wrestling?

Can school find a way to give  scholarships and NOT abide by the 30 person limit?  And so, can they give any number of scholarships?  I’m going to extremes to understand the limits.  Say I donated $100M to a school and it is just for wrestling and field hockey scholarships … can they do something to actually give 50 scholarships to wrestlers and 50 to field hockey players and thumb their nose at these rules above?  

This was the result of the NCAA settlement, to make these changes, so I am pretty sure the roster limits for all sports are hard lines...not something that you can change. According to Borelli, If your school does not participate in revenue sharing you cannot participate in the NCAA championships. What wrestler would want to be part of a program that 1. Does not share revenue with them 2. Cannot go to the NCAA championships ?  At that point having 40 vs 30 on your roster won't matter, because your program will become a club. 

In other words, the NCAA settlement has put non-revenue balls in a vice, which was a problem they created in the first place. 

Edited July 28 by Idaho

[lu1979]

On 7/26/2024 at 7:11 PM, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

This will impact Iowa since they maintain the largest roster in D-1

Navy and Army have had very large rosters in the past - I think doing a sport may be required at the academies.  I wonder how this will impact them.

[AgaveMaria]

12 hours ago, Idaho said:

From a resources standpoint, more wrestlers cost more money. You are using resources, man power and coaching time on wrestlers who  will never see the lineup. Strength coach, trainer, tutors/advisors, etc. will spend time on 30 athletes vs. 40 athletes. The same would be true of the coaching aspect. 

You don't know which wrestlers will "never see the lineup".

Injuries and improvement are both in the mix. Extra workout partners for specific body types and skill in technique or styles are important for some.

With a hard limit of 30 some wrestlers from the past would never have made their teams. Would never have had the chance.

[Dark Energy]

5 hours ago, Idaho said:

This was the result of the NCAA settlement, to make these changes, so I am pretty sure the roster limits for all sports are hard lines...not something that you can change. According to Borelli, If your school does not participate in revenue sharing you cannot participate in the NCAA championships. What wrestler would want to be part of a program that 1. Does not share revenue with them 2. Cannot go to the NCAA championships ?  At that point having 40 vs 30 on your roster won't matter, because your program will become a club. 

In other words, the NCAA settlement has put non-revenue balls in a vice, which was a problem they created in the first place. 

Thanks for this.  It is making me think of the ivies.  Wonder how they are thinking about this.

[Idaho]

11 hours ago, AgaveMaria said:

You don't know which wrestlers will "never see the lineup".

Injuries and improvement are both in the mix. Extra workout partners for specific body types and skill in technique or styles are important for some.

With a hard limit of 30 some wrestlers from the past would never have made their teams. Would never have had the chance.

The coaches can - they see it in the room on a daily basis. The cinderella story can still happen with a 3rd string guy in the weight. You asked a question...I answered it with a reason I was given by a D1 coach.... sorry you don't like the answer. 

[Idaho]

7 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

Thanks for this.  It is making me think of the ivies.  Wonder how they are thinking about this.

Good question....I hadn't thought about that. I wonder how they will respond to this. Maybe some of our Ivy team supporters can chime in. 

[flyingcement]

People are resilient and push envelopes and think of creative ways to respond to nonsense.  If I was a head coach of a program that usually ran a bigger team than 30, I would try and get around the rule by having a larger group in practice and then there would be wrestle-offs or another form of assessment to determine which of that crew got to be officially listed on the roster.  For those that couldn't make it the first time, stick around, keep practicing, and you'll get your shot again.  They may just not be formally listed on the roster any longer

[billyhoyle]

2 hours ago, flyingcement said:

People are resilient and push envelopes and think of creative ways to respond to nonsense.  If I was a head coach of a program that usually ran a bigger team than 30, I would try and get around the rule by having a larger group in practice and then there would be wrestle-offs or another form of assessment to determine which of that crew got to be officially listed on the roster.  For those that couldn't make it the first time, stick around, keep practicing, and you'll get your shot again.  They may just not be formally listed on the roster any longer

Nobody needs more than 30 people in a room. What’s the point of that? Just start a club wrestling team for the 31-50th best wrestlers in the school. 

[Idaho]

12 hours ago, flyingcement said:

People are resilient and push envelopes and think of creative ways to respond to nonsense.  If I was a head coach of a program that usually ran a bigger team than 30, I would try and get around the rule by having a larger group in practice and then there would be wrestle-offs or another form of assessment to determine which of that crew got to be officially listed on the roster.  For those that couldn't make it the first time, stick around, keep practicing, and you'll get your shot again.  They may just not be formally listed on the roster any longer

I have heard of some teams  that actually do have try outs for roster spots...but they are typically vying for those last spots on the roster, which are typically the 35-40th spots. The way I understand it, is that you could do this in pre-season, but once that official roster comes out - 30.  That's a tough deal for kids that are on the bubble that would enroll in school, pay tuition on their dime, then have to wrestle-off....and not make it. Creates a tough situation for them rather than knowing you have a spot before you enroll. 

[Idaho]

10 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

Nobody needs more than 30 people in a room. What’s the point of that? Just start a club wrestling team for the 31-50th best wrestlers in the school. 

Or if your the 4th guy in a weight, reach out to a low-mid level team to see what your opportunities are there. If you are already at a low-mid range team, then go D2 or NAIA.  A lot of people are worried about the 31-40 guys on the roster...but they can just as easily go to a school where they will get more mat time. You don't have to be stuck on D1 or nothing. 

[TNwrestling]

So football's rosters will now cap at 105 but wrestling rosters cap at 30? In what realm does an nfl team cap their roster at 53 but college needs double that?

Edited July 29 by TNwrestling

[MethaneMan]

13 hours ago, flyingcement said:

People are resilient and push envelopes and think of creative ways to respond to nonsense.  If I was a head coach of a program that usually ran a bigger team than 30, I would try and get around the rule by having a larger group in practice and then there would be wrestle-offs or another form of assessment to determine which of that crew got to be officially listed on the roster.  For those that couldn't make it the first time, stick around, keep practicing, and you'll get your shot again.  They may just not be formally listed on the roster any longer

This was the exact process that one university used that recruited my son. In fact, his official visit was during the team roster wrestle offs. We got to attend the wrestle offs. Let me tell you, it was intense and you could cut the tension in the air with a knife. 

Edited July 29 by MethaneMan

[Wrestleknownothing]

54 minutes ago, TNwrestling said:

So football's rosters will now cap at 105 but wrestling rosters cap at 30? In what realm does an nfl team cap their roster at 53 but college needs double that?

The realm where the college head football coach has all the power.

[Camel Wrestling Fan]

1 hour ago, TNwrestling said:

So football's rosters will now cap at 105 but wrestling rosters cap at 30? In what realm does an nfl team cap their roster at 53 but college needs double that?

Pro teams have taxi squads to practice on and occasionally pull up a player due to injury or what not. Colleges uses that 50-85 as a taxi squad really. Why do they now need 105? Idk. Back in the big time schools would have 125. Oklahoma would bring 8 out of the top 10 RBs in the country, let them fight for the position AND keep the other guys off of their rivals team!