No ID required. License to steal.

[WrestlingRasta]

5 minutes ago, fishbane said:

It's possible.  I just wonder what that law looks like that they are charged with breaking.  Any law crafted so subjectively -  "appears under 40" would have problems.  It's legal to sell alcohol to a 35 year old that appears to be 40, but it's illegal to sell alcohol to a 35 year old that appears to be 35.  It sounds like a bad law, but those do exist. Yes would be a very easy defense, “he appeared 40 to me”, but by that time in the process the state and courts got their fees…

The law in Florida is beside the point anyway.  Even if a a few states actually have a law requiring establishments that sell alcohol to check or scan a valid government issued picture ID for every patron that doesn't really make the graphic any less misleading.  This is probably why I ended the post with “not a debate point, just info sake”  

 

[JimmyBT]

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

I am talking about today, but that link said nothing about requiring ID and I said nothing about underage drinking.  I'm not talking about 20 years ago.  I don't know any state that requires an alcohol sellers to check an ID before selling alcohol.  Penalties I am aware of are for actually selling alcohol to minors.  I think some States remove liability for the establishment if the patron provided a valid ID.  This is also why some store will scan all IDs this way they have a record.  I personally hate buying alcohol at these places because I don't want my information stored in their system and potentially in another data breach.  I try to give ID as infrequently as possible.  

Secret shoppers are over 21, but may appear to be under 21.  There is usually not a legal penalty for selling to one without checking the ID because you haven't broken the law.  The shopper will tell the manager though and the employee that made the sale may be disciplined.

There are many states and even more localities that require an ID to purchase alcohol (Tobacco purchases are becoming more common too). Some post the businesses that fail to do so ALONG with the fine they’re required to pay.  It can also cause loss of their liquor license.   This didn’t happen 20 years ago but does now. 

[ionel]

Just now, JimmyBT said:

There are many states and even more localities that require an ID to purchase alcohol (Tobacco purchases are becoming more common too). Some post the businesses that fail to do so ALONG with the fine they’re required to pay.  It can also cause loss of their liquor license.   This didn’t happen 20 years ago but does now. 

Are we sure its only "many states?"  What states don't require?

[JimmyBT]

8 minutes ago, ionel said:

Are we sure it’s only "many states?"  What states don't require?

I don’t know are we?  I was responding to the guy that said there aren’t any states that do. Thanks for help and feel free to list all that do for us. Or any that may not. 

Edited July 11 by JimmyBT

[JimmyBT]

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

I am talking about today, but that link said nothing about requiring ID and I said nothing about underage drinking.  I'm not talking about 20 years ago.  I don't know any state that requires an alcohol sellers to check an ID before selling alcohol.  Penalties I am aware of are for actually selling alcohol to minors.  I think some States remove liability for the establishment if the patron provided a valid ID.  This is also why some store will scan all IDs this way they have a record.  I personally hate buying alcohol at these places because I don't want my information stored in their system and potentially in another data breach.  I try to give ID as infrequently as possible.  

Secret shoppers are over 21, but may appear to be under 21.  There is usually not a legal penalty for selling to one without checking the ID because you haven't broken the law.  The shopper will tell the manager though and the employee that made the sale may be disciplined.

I was responding to the guy that says he’s not aware of any states that require an ID to sell alcohol 

[JimmyBT]

20 hours ago, Scouts Honor said:

when i am in mixed company, i don't bring up politics. im polite.

when someone else does... i change the topic. 

there are so many people who (like some of the posters on this forum) who can't maintain their dignity.

I do the same. Unless it’s my dumbass lazy nephew that free loads off the government.  

[headshuck]

Yes I’m sure Norm and Cliff on Cheers didn’t get carded by Sammy after their 20th visit. But if a busload of unknown teens get dropped off, you can be sure Sammy is going to card them.

[fishbane]

51 minutes ago, JimmyBT said:

There are many states and even more localities that require an ID to purchase alcohol (Tobacco purchases are becoming more common too). Some post the businesses that fail to do so ALONG with the fine they’re required to pay.  It can also cause loss of their liquor license.   This didn’t happen 20 years ago but does now. 

Where are these states that require it? Someone said Florida.  I don't know Florida law.  I personally don't know for a fact that it's the law anywhere, but concede it's possible it's the law somewhere in the US.  Liquor laws are highly variable and often very weird.  Some places in this country it's straight up illegal for anyone to even possess alcohol.  Still I'd be incredibly surprised if requiring an ID was the law in most of the country.  If I'm right and it's not, then its inclusion in the left hand list of the graphic is pretty misleading.

54 minutes ago, ionel said:

Are we sure its only "many states?"  What states don't require?

Pennsylvania.  Below is a direct quote from the state liquor control board website.

"Nothing in the Liquor Code or the PLCB’s Regulations requires patrons to possess valid identification while on licensed premises. However, section 493 of the Liquor Code states that licensees are strictly liable for service to minors, including minors who may be on licensed premises with a parent, legal guardian, or under proper supervision. 47 P.S. § 4- 493(1).

Verifying the age of a patron by checking identifications cards each and every time a patron is in the licensed establishment helps to ensure that a licensee will not be in violation of the law."

I think it is a common misconception that requiring ID is a law.  In most cases it is policy adopted by the particular business from a risk standpoint.  Requiring ID will reduce the chance of them violating the law and getting fined or their license revoked. In some places having proof a valid ID was provided (scan data) will limit the punishment for serving a minor.  As a matter of practicality, I have personally purchased liquor in more than ten states without providing identification.

[JimmyBT]

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

Where are these states that require it? Someone said Florida.  I don't know Florida law.  I personally don't know for a fact that it's the law anywhere, but concede it's possible it's the law somewhere in the US.  Liquor laws are highly variable and often very weird.  Some places in this country it's straight up illegal for anyone to even possess alcohol.  Still I'd be incredibly surprised if requiring an ID was the law in most of the country.  If I'm right and it's not, then its inclusion in the left hand list of the graphic is pretty misleading.

Pennsylvania.  Below is a direct quote from the state liquor control board website.

"Nothing in the Liquor Code or the PLCB’s Regulations requires patrons to possess valid identification while on licensed premises. However, section 493 of the Liquor Code states that licensees are strictly liable for service to minors, including minors who may be on licensed premises with a parent, legal guardian, or under proper supervision. 47 P.S. § 4- 493(1).

Verifying the age of a patron by checking identifications cards each and every time a patron is in the licensed establishment helps to ensure that a licensee will not be in violation of the law."

I think it is a common misconception that requiring ID is a law.  In most cases it is policy adopted by the particular business from a risk standpoint.  Requiring ID will reduce the chance of them violating the law and getting fined or their license revoked. In some places having proof a valid ID was provided (scan data) will limit the punishment for serving a minor.  As a matter of practicality, I have personally purchased liquor in more than ten states without providing identification.

 I’m retired and still get asked > 75% of the time for my ID when buying off sale alcohol. In a bar it’s probably 25% of the time. I border another state so this isn’t just in my state.  You have to produce it when asked or they arent going to serve you.   Just last week I was denied purchasing smokeless tobacco because I left my ID at home.   Seems to me your splitting hairs when it’s required if youre asked for it. Only misleading in the left column if you make it that way. 

[fishbane]

24 minutes ago, JimmyBT said:

I’m retired and still get asked > 75% of the time for my ID when buying off sale alcohol. In a bar it’s probably 25% of the time. I border another state so this isn’t just in my state.  You have to produce it when asked or they arent going to serve you.   Just last week I was denied purchasing smokeless tobacco because I left my ID at home.   Seems to me your splitting hairs when it’s required if youre asked for it. Only misleading in the left column if you make it that way. 

I dunno man people ask for things all the time that aren't required.  We're comparing how hundreds of different business might set their policy vs what is required by law.  I'd expect voters to get more consistent treatment at a government administered voting location than across hundreds/thousands of private businesses.  If the law doesn't say something is required to do something then I'd expect the government to not require it.  Private business can be ridiculous.  Home Depot asks me to see my government issued ID more in a year than the government that issued it does.

[JimmyBT]

3 minutes ago, fishbane said:

I dunno man people ask for things all the time that aren't required.  We're comparing how hundreds of different business might set their policy vs what is required by law.  I'd expect voters to get more consistent treatment at a government administered voting location than across hundreds/thousands of private businesses.  If the law doesn't say something is required to do something then I'd expect the government to not require it.  Private business can be ridiculous.  Home Depot asks me to see my government issued ID more in a year than the government that issued it does.

When the government is fining and removing liquor licenses for those breaking the law I’d say they feel it’s a problem that needs to be addressed 

[WrestlingRasta]

Maybe we hold the folks working the polling stations across the land legally responsible if they accept a ballot or registration from someone who is not legally allowed to vote??

[fishbane]

35 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Maybe we hold the folks working the polling stations across the land legally responsible if they accept a ballot or registration from someone who is not legally allowed to vote??

Poll workers are paid where I live though not much.  Probably would be difficult to recruit people to do it if they were held strictly liable for accepting/processing an ineligible ballot in the say way PA holds liquor license holders responsible for serving underage patrons.  I suspect the government wouldn't do that to itself.  They often write laws private business and citizens are required to follow, but they are exempted.

[JimmyBT]

2 hours ago, fishbane said:

I dunno man people ask for things all the time that aren't required.  We're comparing how hundreds of different business might set their policy vs what is required by law.  I'd expect voters to get more consistent treatment at a government administered voting location than across hundreds/thousands of private businesses.  If the law doesn't say something is required to do something then I'd expect the government to not require it.  Private business can be ridiculous.  Home Depot asks me to see my government issued ID more in a year than the government that issued it does.

I’ve never once been asked for my ID at Home Depot 

[Scouts Honor]

8 hours ago, fishbane said:

I never said anything about selling alcohol to minors.  I never bought alcohol from a store as a minor.  It often happens as a middle age man.  Walk into to a bar order alcohol.  Pay for alcohol. Consume alcohol.  Leave.  All very similar to how Willie described his voting experience in PA for the last presidential election, but even more anonymous.  He had to identify himself by giving his name which was matched to a list.  I have been served alcohol legally without giving my name or ID.

I don't know what you're going on about with the common law marriage thing.  You just say you're married no identification that's how it works - not everywhere but in some states.  You can then file your taxes as married.  No identification is provided when filing taxes.  The only place that link you provided said anything about providing identification was when filing a name change, which was not on the original graphic and is also something that is not required when you get married. I suspect many places that ask for ID when filing for a marriage it isn't even really a requirement.  The law probably is similar has an age limit so the ID is just proof that both parties are old enough to enter into marriage.  A couple senior citizens go in there with the forms filled out and they breeze through.  Someone brings a birth certificate instead of a drivers license and they are good to go.  Some places might require photo ID too.

im 53, my wife and i get carded all the time.

[Scouts Honor]

7 hours ago, fishbane said:

If someone casts a vote that is ineligible to vote the could also face punishment.  Literally the entire list in your graphic is like this.

 

i think the person allowing the vote should be treated like a bar owner

[Scouts Honor]

my son had surgery today. 

needed his ID

went to pharmacy... i needed ID

he went to fill out paperwork for his new job.. needed his BIRTH CERTIFICATE

[Scouts Honor]

people under 18 dont need an ID... they dont' vote

[Scouts Honor]

2 hours ago, fishbane said:

I dunno man people ask for things all the time that aren't required.  We're comparing how hundreds of different business might set their policy vs what is required by law.  I'd expect voters to get more consistent treatment at a government administered voting location than across hundreds/thousands of private businesses.  If the law doesn't say something is required to do something then I'd expect the government to not require it.  Private business can be ridiculous.  Home Depot asks me to see my government issued ID more in a year than the government that issued it does.

so when a black gets carded... does he cry racism... b/c it's racist to require ID? 

i mean... marriage is white supremacy these days

[Scouts Honor]

btw, same son... caught in a sting... girl was in late 20's 

he knew her

didn't card her.

she was part of sting.(pretty shitty of her to go thru with it)

had to pay a fine and a diversion class.

bar owner paid a bigger fine. 

lawyer friend, former wrestler got both fines reduced...

[WrestlingRasta]

8 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

people under 18 dont need an ID... they dont' vote

I have two kids on a plane right now heading home from Auntie’s house…they need ID 

Edited July 11 by WrestlingRasta

[fishbane]

Just now, WrestlingRasta said:

I have two kids on a plane right now heading home from Auntie’s house…they need ID 

This isn't a TSA requirement for a domestic flight. If auntie lives in another country they need an ID, namely a passport.

[Scouts Honor]

back to the topic of being polite in mixed company.

a while back, my in laws... STAUNCH liberals.. ( they have posed pictures with Hillary and another prominent dem.. escapes me whom...)

had a party.. can't remember if it was a birthday or anniversary

anyway.. all their friends were there... many from the postal workers union where they worked for many years and were active in union business etc... 

so i go outside and sit at one of two picnic tables with my niece and we talk about her softball team etc.. eating our burgers

a few of the guests come out and sit down.. most look normal... but probably 4 of the 10 had blue/purple hair... and were kind of out there... i just say hi, how you doing... they do same... and sit down at the two tables around us

a couple sat in front of me... and i asked them how they were etc... and where they were from ... and how they knew my inlaws... and we had a great convo about families etc

as we were talking I could here the table next to us talking about Trump and what an idiot he is... and all kinds of stuff.. just whining etc.. i just ignored it.

but the lady in front of me started to piggy back on it and tried to get our table talking about it... 

she said she just couldn't understand how anyone could support him.. etc.. and wouldn't feel comfortable being around anyone like that and was glad that my inlaws were dems and wouldn't invite someone like that

i changed the subject immediately.. asking the husband... ( he had mentioned cars earlier) what kind of car he liked... was he ford/ chevy/dodge etc.. and the started telling me about a car he was redoing and showed me pics... and we had another 10 minutes of fun

all this time she started in on the other side of the table.. continuing her complaints

again. i asked one of the other guests something about what they had mentioned earlier... and got the convo going in that direction... 

pretty soon, tired of me changing channels on her.. she asked me what I thought of Trump

i said, well , he is an idiot... but given the alternative...  and btw, i am a republican...

my niece and I were alone within 3 minutes

[WrestlingRasta]

4 minutes ago, fishbane said:

This isn't a TSA requirement for a domestic flight. If auntie lives in another country they need an ID, namely a passport.

Okay

Edited July 11 by WrestlingRasta

[JimmyBT]

19 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

my son had surgery today. 

needed his ID

went to pharmacy... i needed ID

he went to fill out paperwork for his new job.. needed his BIRTH CERTIFICATE

I hope everything went well for your son.