Is Iowa City still the wrestling epicenter of America?

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

Factoring in college wrestling (both men and women's), freestyle and greco?

[BAC]

In the international styles, no.  Not even sure there's any Iowa natives on the senior world teams, and the Hawkeye Wrestling Club has been famously dormant the last few years.  If there's an argument that Iowa is an "epicenter" in the international styles, its that Iowa is the place that USA Wrestling annoying shoves all of its events.  Not that I'm bitter about that, but USAW uses the same crappy rationale that it is "central" and "affordable" and sometimes they trot out the ol' "the only place that would make a bid" rationale. Its offensive and scandalous.  You also get the "Iowa fans show up" line, ignoring that they have maybe 2-3% of wrestling fans and yet garner about 70% of events, yielding attendance figures that are a fraction of what they should be.  Its a bunch of Iowans self-dealing to other Iowans, preventing the sport from growing, and feeding into the stereotype that its a sport for farm hands when they aren't chewing hayseed.  Again, not that I'm bitter about that.

As for college wrestling, give credit where it is due -- the U of Iowa is regularly at the top or near the top of dual attendance figures.  I don't think that makes them the "epicenter" as PSU has comparable turnout.  And I think you'll find a far greater population of wrestling fans in other wrestling hotbeds like the greater Pittsburgh and Cleveland areas, with comparable regions in numerous other states.  There's also easily a dozen states with more wrestlers with Iowa and they are still just a tiny fraction of the overall fan base.  Even so, Iowa fans show up and support their team and that's awesome.

[ionel]

It being Latte Wednesday, I had a large skim hazelnut latte and a lemon scone at ER this morning.   

[Jason Bryant]

Doesn't matter where you put this. No one will show up. The bid thing is about 90% legitimate. You don't just show up and put something someplace that doesn't want it. I'm trying to host an event and the sports commission here in St. Paul has moving parts, moving dates, other tenants and also adminstrative changover. That's in addition to the issues we have in the sport. Can you put something in a place where the CVB and sports commission doesn't bid? Sure, if you can find a venue that will take you, but you'll lose even more money. Iowa City's CVB puts effort into these events. But in the U.S., we are ALWAYS going to find an excuse not to show up. 

@BAC, your points are valid, but we STILL have to contend with ourselves. We are the most excuse-filled, complaint-ridden fanbase when it comes to these types of things.  We show up to ONE event. I mean, there's only been 102 dual meets in the history of collegiate wrestling that have drawn over 10,000 people and of those 102, 77 have been in either Iowa City, Ames or Cedar Falls. What will WE finally do to show up? Every date one of us picks, another will have a problem with it. The 80 D1 coaches can't get on the same page about anything, so how do we expect thousands of fans from around the country. 

Let's also not confuse the fact Penn State wrestling fans are Penn State wrestling fans and not necessarily wrestling fans first. Iowa Hawkeye wrestling fans show out for Iowa Hawkeye wrestling, they don't for much of anything else. 

The Big Ten tournament gets good crowds, but that's again, tied to the best conference with the most success and the two most adoring fanbases from an attendance standpoint. 

There's zero team element in senior-level wrestling. No one "went" to Titan Mercury. If they aren't currently wearing the colors of said school, they might as well be sitting in the bar with the rest of us. 

Sorry, just venting - and it's not at you. I just get frustrated as much as everyone else does. I don't know the answer, but a lot of it is us. The diehards here aren't the issue. We want to go. We want to find ways to attend. Like many, I'm married with kids. I live and breathe this stuff, but I don't get to the U.S. Open in Vegas unless I'm hired to go. I lose money for a week-long event. Or even a weekend event. That's our reality too. Those who love this sport aren't flush with cash and we're usually in gyms locally. 

There's no perfect answer. I share your frustration. I also know from the other side of it - there is a lot of thought that goes into WHERE to host events. You take a chance by putting them in places you know wrestling fans ARE, but if they show up, that's another thing. 

... now I'm ranting and off topic ... and frustrated still! Baku for the Greco World Cup was a small venue, but the place was full, loud and boisterous. On Sunday, there should have been a full arena in Coralville. There is zero high school wrestling going on. 

Bah. 

[feet2back]

I would say Penn State...Located in middle of PA

Pennsylvania D1 Schools 

Bloomsburg

Bucknell

Clarion

Drexel

Edinboro

Franklin and Marshall

Lehigh

Lock Haven 

Penn State

UPenn

Pitt

You also have Princeton and Rider right over Bridge from PA in NJ

Iowa D1 Programs

Iowa

Iowa State

Northern Iowa

 

[feet2back]

54 minutes ago, feet2back said:

I would say Penn State...Located in middle of PA

Pennsylvania D1 Schools 

Bloomsburg

Bucknell

Clarion

Drexel

Edinboro

Franklin and Marshall

Lehigh

Lock Haven 

Penn State

UPenn

Pitt

You also have Princeton and Rider right over Bridge from PA in NJ

Iowa D1 Programs

Iowa

Iowa State

Northern Iowa

• Iowa is about 1.2 times bigger than Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania is approximately 116,075 sq km, while Iowa is approximately 144,701 sq km, making Iowa 25% larger than Pennsylvania.

 

54 minutes ago, feet2back said:

 

 

[BAC]

1 hour ago, Jason Bryant said:

Doesn't matter where you put this. No one will show up. The bid thing is about 90% legitimate. You don't just show up and put something someplace that doesn't want it. I'm trying to host an event and the sports commission here in St. Paul has moving parts, moving dates, other tenants and also adminstrative changover. That's in addition to the issues we have in the sport. Can you put something in a place where the CVB and sports commission doesn't bid? Sure, if you can find a venue that will take you, but you'll lose even more money. Iowa City's CVB puts effort into these events. But in the U.S., we are ALWAYS going to find an excuse not to show up. 

@BAC, your points are valid, but we STILL have to contend with ourselves. We are the most excuse-filled, complaint-ridden fanbase when it comes to these types of things.  We show up to ONE event. I mean, there's only been 102 dual meets in the history of collegiate wrestling that have drawn over 10,000 people and of those 102, 77 have been in either Iowa City, Ames or Cedar Falls. What will WE finally do to show up? Every date one of us picks, another will have a problem with it. The 80 D1 coaches can't get on the same page about anything, so how do we expect thousands of fans from around the country. 

Let's also not confuse the fact Penn State wrestling fans are Penn State wrestling fans and not necessarily wrestling fans first. Iowa Hawkeye wrestling fans show out for Iowa Hawkeye wrestling, they don't for much of anything else. 

The Big Ten tournament gets good crowds, but that's again, tied to the best conference with the most success and the two most adoring fanbases from an attendance standpoint. 

There's zero team element in senior-level wrestling. No one "went" to Titan Mercury. If they aren't currently wearing the colors of said school, they might as well be sitting in the bar with the rest of us. 

Sorry, just venting - and it's not at you. I just get frustrated as much as everyone else does. I don't know the answer, but a lot of it is us. The diehards here aren't the issue. We want to go. We want to find ways to attend. Like many, I'm married with kids. I live and breathe this stuff, but I don't get to the U.S. Open in Vegas unless I'm hired to go. I lose money for a week-long event. Or even a weekend event. That's our reality too. Those who love this sport aren't flush with cash and we're usually in gyms locally. 

There's no perfect answer. I share your frustration. I also know from the other side of it - there is a lot of thought that goes into WHERE to host events. You take a chance by putting them in places you know wrestling fans ARE, but if they show up, that's another thing. 

... now I'm ranting and off topic ... and frustrated still! Baku for the Greco World Cup was a small venue, but the place was full, loud and boisterous. On Sunday, there should have been a full arena in Coralville. There is zero high school wrestling going on. 

Bah. 

JB, you know I like and respect you and your work.  And I agree with much of what you wrote.  But I strongly disagree on the venue issue, particularly as it pertains to USA Wrestling.

There is no excuse whatsoever for USA Wrestling to shoehorn so many domestic wrestling events into Iowa, time and time again.  

Why does USA Wrestling exist?  Yes it coordinates programming, but to what end?  To make money, like a corporation that answers to shareholders? No. Their own mission statement gives the answer:  "to create interest and participation in these programs." (https://www.teamusa.org/usa-wrestling/about-us/our-mission). You don't grow the sport when you jam wrestling events in the same 20-mile radius time and time again, with the same 70,000 people.  That's how you kill a sport.  You are gaining no new fans as almost all attendees have been there, done that.  

And that doesn't even address the basic fairness that USA Wrestling owes to its members, only a couple percent of which are based in Iowa.  They have a duty to make these programs available to everyone, but it isn't even close. The west coast gets virtually nothing, virtually ever.  The east coast virtually nothing, virtually ever.  How many USAW events have there been in the entire states of California or Pennsylvania (the two biggest wrestling states, combined population: 52 million) in the past 25 years?  Answer:  Fewer than Iowa City area (population: 70,000) got in the last 2.  USA Wrestling has over 200,000 members and it is blatantly shirking its duty of fairness to the vast majority.  And that's to say nothing of the racial tone-deafness of jamming every almost wrestling event in an area that is virtually all white, despite "diversity" ostensibly being a USA Wrestling "core value" per the above link.

Am I say its all self-dealing by USA Wrestling?  No, though I need to bite my tongue here.  But at best its gross negligence.  I get that some of these remote venues make a more active, concerted effort to secure these events.  Good for them.  And they may offer a better financial deal.  Again, great.  And some venues in preferred areas may not respond to RFPs.  Rut-row.  So if you don't care about your job or mission, its easy to just take the deal you get from the guy you know and move on.  But USA Wrestling's job isn't to just to take the best financial deal, from those who push hardest.  That's just lazy, and will only land us in the most remote regions of the country, time and time again -- which is EXACTLY what has happened.  They need to get off their butts, think about where wrestlers actually are, aggressively and actively solicit bids from those areas, and put events there -- fairly and evenly distributed among the USAW constituency, with additional outreach to targeted growth areas.  (A good albeit rare example:  Bout at the Ballpark dual in Arlington TX in Feb this year.)

I'm not saying this sort of branching out is easy to execute, and I'm not saying attendance will suddenly explode if we do.  But we must end these years of jamming events into Iowa (and occasionally other forlorn places).  If we branch out more, sometimes the attendance figures will be higher, sometimes lower, but at least it is fair to the membership and reaches a new audience.  Sometimes the revenue will be lower, or venue cost higher -- sometimes much higher -- but again, USAW's charge isn't to send dividend checks to shareholders, but to grow the sport.  And it is an investment in the growth of the sport:  more new viewers and participants means more USAW members and more money.  Reasonable people can differ on which venues are ideal, but this much is evident:  dragging the same 500 lookalike Iowans to the same events in the same slingshot radius, year after year, is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the growth, fairness and outreach that USAW must do.  

End of shout into the void, and sorry to hijack a college-oriented topic.

[MPhillips]

4 minutes ago, BAC said:

But I strongly disagree on the venue issue, particularly as it pertains to USA Wrestling.

On what basis? Opinion? If so, that's fair. What cities have been the great draw for events? Particularly World Cup? I'd be happy with it back in Toledo personally.

 

[PortaJohn]

58 minutes ago, feet2back said:

Iowa is about 1.2 times bigger than Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania is approximately 116,075 sq km, while Iowa is approximately 144,701 sq km, making Iowa 25% larger than Pennsylvania.

Wow, really puts things into perspective

[Ban Basketball]

19 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

Wow, really puts things into perspective

Being an Iowan myself, I would not have thought that.

However, that relates to the initial question how?

[BAC]

41 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

On what basis? Opinion? If so, that's fair. What cities have been the great draw for events? Particularly World Cup? I'd be happy with it back in Toledo personally.

 

On what basis?  Dude.  Read the rest of my post, just not the first sentence.

Other cities to target?  Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Chicago, Fresno, Atlantic City, Minneapolis, Bethlehem, Suffolk, Tempe... 

[Jason Bryant]

3 minutes ago, BAC said:

On what basis?  Dude.  Read the rest of my post, just not the first sentence.

Other cities to target?  Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Chicago, Fresno, Atlantic City, Minneapolis, Bethlehem, Suffolk, Tempe... 

Who is going to be the ones to pressure their CVBs and Sports Commissions to at least raise their hand and say "Hey, how about us?" State chapters? State chairs. There hasn't been an answer to the riddle. I know MN/USAW and Wisconsin have two of the best organizations in terms of volume of people to work and staff events from tappers to table workers. Madison drew OK for Trials in the past. I'd love something up here in the Twin Cities but you've got TWO venues of ample size (Xcel and Target). I'm working on putting an event in 3,500-seat Roy Wilkins Auditorium (got bumped in 2023 for roller derby). 

Personally, I think New Jersey has a lot of options that make sense. Costs are considerably higher in NY/NJ and other union towns. Newark's Prudential Center is AWESOME, but it's Newark. Ain't much around the arena that doesn't scream at people from outside of the tri-state area. 

Perhaps the new Mullett Arena in Tempe might work. It seats 5,000. Home to the Coyotes (for the time being) and Arizona State wrestling and ice hockey. 

From the Iowa question asked originally ... Iowa Hawkeye wrestling fans show out, for Iowa Hawkeye Wrestling. 

[MPhillips]

8 minutes ago, BAC said:

On what basis?  Dude.  Read the rest of my post, just not the first sentence.

Other cities to target?  Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Chicago, Fresno, Atlantic City, Minneapolis, Bethlehem, Suffolk, Tempe... 

I was curious what other cities that have hosted drew/draw more. 

I like the fact that you said, Dude though. I could hear the tone in your writing. 

[Ban Basketball]

12 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

 From the Iowa question asked originally ... Iowa Hawkeye wrestling fans show out, for Iowa Hawkeye Wrestling. 

And,  take it from me: location and how their teams are doing doesn't make a derned bit of difference; they'll be there in droves in black and gold. 

You can watch a Sqwawker team play a local Timbuktu (sp?) team in Africa and when something big for the Sqwawkers happens ( or their rassler is winning and the "stalling" screams begin)  you've got a roar.  Local team has something good happen ,  it sounds like a golf gallery. 

[BAC]

6 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

I was curious what other cities that have hosted drew/draw more. 

I like the fact that you said, Dude though. I could hear the tone in your writing. 

I've seen sporadic attendance figures but not sure if they're collected anywhere.  JB is right that none of them are going to be all that high.

Some of the possible venues I mentioned would draw more.  Some would draw less.  But the point isn't as simple as maximizing attendance.  It is spreading around events to various parts of the country to make sure everyone gets a fair chance to see good wresting, to make sure that travel costs aren't always borne by the same areas every single time, and to draw in new fans.  For example, if the Coralville attendance was around 2K, how many of those were also at OTTs and the World Cup last year?  Probably the vast majority.  Put it somewhere else and you're drawing in new fans.

I should also clarify that I'm not sure how the selection process works.  I'm dumping on USAW, but the World Cup is UWW.  But its a good guess that USAW played a significant role in convincing UWW that somehow the Iowa City area should host *another* major freestyle event.  Sigh.

[LJB]

it is times like these where i think to myself all these great ideas...

all these "solutions" to the same problems wrestling has always faced in this country... 

all these grand proclamations about how it should be done...

 

and yet...

 

not one person with all these great ideas is doing anything about it other than hanging out on a forum...

and that is a damn shame...

all of wrestling's problems so easily solved...

tsk tsk...

[MPhillips]

I don't disagree @BAC I'd be all for Cleveland or Pittsburgh or take us back to the glory days when it was always in Toledo. Those are all within a couple hours for me.

 

[Mike Parrish]

I see the problem differently.

Wrestling's biggest failure comes from the failure at youth retention.

Basketball, baseball and football seem to have been able to build multi-generational interest.
Your dad played football and so did your friends' dads, so they all come to watch the football game.

We don't seem to build wrestling the same way where I come from.

[Willis]

USAW's attempts to "market" the sport are feeble at best. You can't do much marketing if you don't have a single marketing person on staff.

[BAC]

27 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

Who is going to be the ones to pressure their CVBs and Sports Commissions to at least raise their hand and say "Hey, how about us?" State chapters? State chairs. There hasn't been an answer to the riddle. I know MN/USAW and Wisconsin have two of the best organizations in terms of volume of people to work and staff events from tappers to table workers. Madison drew OK for Trials in the past. I'd love something up here in the Twin Cities but you've got TWO venues of ample size (Xcel and Target). I'm working on putting an event in 3,500-seat Roy Wilkins Auditorium (got bumped in 2023 for roller derby). 

Personally, I think New Jersey has a lot of options that make sense. Costs are considerably higher in NY/NJ and other union towns. Newark's Prudential Center is AWESOME, but it's Newark. Ain't much around the arena that doesn't scream at people from outside of the tri-state area. 

Perhaps the new Mullett Arena in Tempe might work. It seats 5,000. Home to the Coyotes (for the time being) and Arizona State wrestling and ice hockey. 

From the Iowa question asked originally ... Iowa Hawkeye wrestling fans show out, for Iowa Hawkeye Wrestling. 

Convention bureaus showing interest would be great but lets not overstate their role:  they aren't gatekeepers, they're marketers.  Whether a venue hosts an event isn't their call.  If venue owners or their agents don't go to USA Wrestling then USA Wrestling must go to them.  Its not enough for USA Wrestling to just wait for bids to float in when they have an event to plan -- that's not doing their job nor fulfilling their organizational mission.  When corporations want to attract diverse talent, they go to where the talent is and sell themselves to solicit an application.  USAW should do the same.  Most venues have an RFP link on their website.  If they struggle, there's plenty of brokers out there with the relationships and knowhow to get it done.  Or apparently you, since it sounds like you're neck-deep in this stuff right now.

Agree with your options.  Tempe is a strong choice out west.  In NJ, Newark is horrifying but there's multiple shore options and the Cure arena near Trenton draws on the wrestling-rich Lehigh Valley population, and of course NJ wresting fans are already used to going to AC to see wrestling.  

 

[BAC]

52 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

I don't disagree @BAC I'd be all for Cleveland or Pittsburgh or take us back to the glory days when it was always in Toledo. Those are all within a couple hours for me.

 

For the record, I hate Ohio.  Sorry.  Normally I crap on Ohio every chance I get.  But the wrestling population there is enormous, knowledgeable, passionate, and lets face it, there's not much else to do there other than sit at home and OD on fentanyl.  Cleveland set an attendance record when NCAAs were there (as did Philly and Pittsburgh, two other places high on my list), its dirt cheap, and it borders on criminal that USA Wresting has ignored it as a venue for decades.  I'm surprised Ohio folks still pay their USAW membership dues; they should've gone on payment strike a decade ago.  

[Jason Bryant]

US Opens in Cleveland were gross failures in terms of attendance. Trials in Council Bluffs/Omaha were worse.

[MPhillips]

41 minutes ago, BAC said:

For the record, I hate Ohio.  Sorry.

 

there's not much else to do there other than sit at home and OD on fentanyl. 

LOL. No worries. I've got 5 acres on a lake in the country. I'm good.

 

That's only because they took our Vicodin away.

[BAC]

45 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

LOL. No worries. I've got 5 acres on a lake in the country. I'm good.

 

That's only because they took our Vicodin away.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 hours ago, Willis said:

USAW's attempts to "market" the sport are feeble at best. You can't do much marketing if you don't have a single marketing person on staff.