Hawkeyes finish 4th

[KLCarnegieTech_1969]

16 hours ago, Maxwell Smart said:

No individual titles with 1 wrestler in the finals. Michigan and Nebraska finish ahead and several teams have more in the finals. Ohio State's team is young and talented. National talent at an all time high with 5-6 year seniors and incoming freshman ready to go. Teams are passing the Hawkeyes, they were once trying to catch up. IMO

 

Yep, back there with Rutgers.

[Sublime607]

4 hours ago, Maxwell Smart said:

The first post on this forum pointed out that the Hawkeyes haven't had near the success they had after the first 3 years of the Brands brothers and the brothers get all the raves about how they develop talent. Look at the program after that 3 year run; 14 years - How many NCAA titles?  How many individual champions? Several teams have more individual champions, and don't compare them to PSU, it's very obvious who has the teams ready every year.   Lehigh, Cornell, Ohio State and others now compete with the Hawks for a trophy. I knew this was a Hawkeye dominated forum. If someone opines their thoughts on the Brands brothers, the sick-o-phants(sp) come out in full force.

 

You left out that they benefited from having VT transfers during that run.

[Mr. PeanutButter]

I would like to see Iowa get better at getting their top recruits over the top. One of the most consistently disappointing things as a fan is seeing, year over year, their finalists (and other contenders) fall short. There are other issues of course but that stands out. 

I'm all for change, as long as it could lead to better results. Which head coach could step in and do better? I'm not sure there is a vetted and available option right now. I do think Iowa is in nerd of new assistants though... 

[VakAttack]

43 minutes ago, dragit said:

They are probably still the second best program but not consistently.  Penn State is consistently the best.  Iowa is the best of the rest over the last decade on the whole but you can't count on it the way you can with Penn State as the best.

2013 - 4th

2014 - 4th

2015 - 2nd

2016 - 5th

2017 - 4th

2018 - 3rd

2019 - 4th

2020 - no tournament 

2021 - 1st

2022 - 3rd

2023 - 2nd

So they were first or second 3 out of 10 years, third or worse 7 out of 10.  And it will probably be 8 out of 11 years as third or worse after next week.

This is a consistent top 4 team which has been the second best on average but even that should probably be seen as in jeopardy. 

And with no indications of improvement.  For a little bit there it looked like Brands had turned a corner, but it was really just a blip with the PA recruits.  It's hard to unsee so many top talents ending their careers broken down physically and mentally.  

 

I should have been more clear, they're the second best performing program, not that they have taken second every year.

[JimmyCinnabon]

2 hours ago, Dogbone said:

Not an Iowa fan, but Iowa was the favorite in 2020, National Champs in 2021 and were runner up last year.  I don't think anyone was beating PSU this year but the gambling issues didn't help Iowa.

The race for 2nd is still very wide open. Just because Michigan finished 2nd doesn't mean they will be the 2nd highest team at NCAAs. 

 

It is often harder to win the B1G than the NCAA tournament. Cael has more NCAA titles than he does B1G titles. 

[JimmyCinnabon]

2 hours ago, Elevator said:

Good analysis - not a fan but I think the coaches at Iowa are a good fit.  It is still a magnet program and will have plenty of success going forward.

Tom & Terry are still elite college coaches. I'm not an Iowa fan but I think they'd be nuts to get rid of them. Finding coaches that are at their level isn't easy and if it was you'd see a lot more programs doing a lot better.

[fishbane]

The worst finishes for Iowa at Big Tens since 1967 are 

2006 6th, Zalesky finished 4th at NCAAs

2005 4th, Zalesky finished 7th at NCAAs

2018 4th, Brands finished 3rd at NCAAs

2024 4th, Brands finished ?? at NCAAs

No other Iowa team finished lower than 3rd from 1968-2024 a period that covers 57 years.  Some might argue that the Big Ten is more competitive in 2018 and 2024 than 2005 and 2006.  In 2005 the conference had 4 top 10 teams (Michigan, Minnesota, Illinois, Iowa, and Indiana), in 2006 there were 4 (Minnesota, Iowa, Michigan, and Penn State),  and in 2018 there were 4 (Penn State, Ohio State, Iowa, Michigan, and Nebraska).  In 2018 the Big Ten had the top 4 teams in the country.   

[Smsu150]

5 hours ago, Maxwell Smart said:

The first post on this forum pointed out that the Hawkeyes haven't had near the success they had after the first 3 years of the Brands brothers and the brothers get all the raves about how they develop talent. Look at the program after that 3 year run; 14 years - How many NCAA titles?  How many individual champions? Several teams have more individual champions, and don't compare them to PSU, it's very obvious who has the teams ready every year.   Lehigh, Cornell, Ohio State and others now compete with the Hawks for a trophy. I knew this was a Hawkeye dominated forum. If someone opines their thoughts on the Brands brothers, the sick-o-phants(sp) come out in full force.

 

The Brand's brothers first year, they finished 8th at the NCAA tournament. Iowa then won 3 straight.  Iowa was ranked first in 2020, and would have been a solid bet to win the title that year.  In the last 14 years, Penn State is the best team in the country, Iowa is the next best team over that same time period.  There is no debate.  Of course, being the 2nd best team is not what Iowa fans want or expect.  It's been a long while since Dan Gable has retired, but his legacy still looms large over the program.   At the time of his retirement, I would have said Dan Gable's coaching resume would have been impossible to top, but Cael is certainly closing in. 

 

 

Edited March 11 by Smsu150

[hawkguy]

2 hours ago, TylerDurden said:

Even with the suspended guys, I'm not sure Iowa does better than third. They finished 7.5 points behind Nebraska and 13 points behind Michigan for second.

Cassioppi is obviously the one who had the most potential to outscore the replacement, as he was +6.5 last year versus what they got from Hill. He was a big scorer at 3rd place last year and he was a potential finalist. They would have been in a battle for third. I don't think they would have caught Michigan, but we'll never know. 

157 Siebrecht (8.5 points in 23) vs Franek (4th, 11.5 points)

174 Brands (9 points in 23) vs Kennedy (5th, 11.5 points)

184 Assad (7.5 points in 23) vs. Riggins (10th, 7 points)

285 Cassioppi (16.5 points in 23) vs Hill (5th, 10 points) 

Regardless of what might have happened, it was always going to be a slight rebuild in Iowa City this year. You can't replace Spencer Lee. It's also not easy to replace Max Murin or Jacob Warner. 

 

Riggins scored 0.5 so just basing off the points, Assad and Cass scored from last year alone even though Assad could scored much higher. Iowa takes 2nd. 

If Iowa was at full strength they would have taken 2nd handily

Edited March 11 by hawkguy

[jmoney]

6 hours ago, Ivan Stankowski said:

The Badgers finished 8th with one wrestler in the finals, Go Bono!!!

Barnett and Zargo have been stunted under his leadership. How many others could have been better

[NM1965]

2 minutes ago, jmoney said:

Barnett and Zargo have been stunted under his leadership. How many others could have been better

Imagine how good Hamiti would be if he had a good coach. Hamiti has basically been the same guy every year. 

[NM1965]

31 minutes ago, Smsu150 said:

The Brand's brothers first year, they finished 8th at the NCAA tournament. Iowa then won 3 straight.  Iowa was ranked first in 2020, and would have been a solid bet to win the title that year.  In the last 14 years, Penn State is the best team in the country, Iowa is the next best team over that same time period.  There is no debate.  Of course, being the 2nd best team is not what Iowa fans want or expect.  It's been a long while since Dan Gable has retired, but his legacy still looms large over the program.   At the time of his retirement, I would have said Dan Gable's coaching resume would have been impossible to top, but Cael is certainly closing in. 

 

 

The record is Cael's if he wants it. I hope he sticks around just to break Gable's record, and I can't imagine him going anywhere just yet. 

[wrestle87]

The Iowa room is not an overly attractive room anymore.  Other coaches have put together a lot of their own methods, and it is really showing.  The brands and J Smith were the best game in town when the wrestling community believed that they needed to stay with anger as the only path to success.  Some crazy fan version of stockholm syndrome that captivated the community for decades.

Thankfully, that era is over, nail in the coffin.  Iowa and Okie State will gradually continue to revert to local recruiting hubs, and yes they will have the "old" pedigree, but frankly, and I say this with great glee, we have entered an era where wrestlers don't need to be emotionally and verbally abused in order to be successful.  

It is clear that the teams who are good are the ones who have fun, and who embrace the upside in participating from a place of enjoyment rather than one of angry competition are more successful long term.  Surprise surprise too, medical research is confirming that there are, in fact, enormous positive endocrine and epigenetic cascades that take place when you enjoy your life and your pursuits rather than being mad at it.

J Smith and T&T have embraced a personality of anger for so long, they likely will not be able to unwind it all.  It would require near total reconstruction of the self from within.  

[TylerDurden]

20 minutes ago, hawkguy said:

Riggins scored 0.5 so just basing off the points, Assad and Cass scored from last year alone even though Assad could scored much higher. Iowa takes 2nd. 

If Iowa was at full strength they would have taken 2nd handily

Track wrestling showed Riggins with 7 in the stats drop down, but it looks they included the mini-tournament for placements. So my bad for missing that.

We still don't know what the suspended guys would have done, but Franek and Kennedy scored more this year than Siebrecht and Brands did last year at the same weights (+5). I agree Iowa was depleted (self-inflicted) and it impacted things, but my larger point was that I don't think this is all on the suspensions. They had big shoes to fill this season regardless of the suspensions.

I'm not on the "Iowa is toast" boat, but I do think Iowa has some work to do. 

[NM1965]

2 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

The Iowa room is not an overly attractive room anymore.  Other coaches have put together a lot of their own methods, and it is really showing.  The brands and J Smith were the best game in town when the wrestling community believed that they needed to stay with anger as the only path to success.  Some crazy fan version of stockholm syndrome that captivated the community for decades.

Thankfully, that era is over, nail in the coffin.  Iowa and Okie State will gradually continue to revert to local recruiting hubs, and yes they will have the "old" pedigree, but frankly, and I say this with great glee, we have entered an era where wrestlers don't need to be emotionally and verbally abused in order to be successful.  

It is clear that the teams who are good are the ones who have fun, and who embrace the upside in participating from a place of enjoyment rather than one of angry competition are more successful long term.  Surprise surprise too, medical research is confirming that there are, in fact, enormous positive endocrine and epigenetic cascades that take place when you enjoy your life and your pursuits rather than being mad at it.

J Smith and T&T have embraced a personality of anger for so long, they likely will not be able to unwind it all.  It would require near total reconstruction of the self from within.  

The Brands "brand" has been anger, but I've never gotten that image from John Smith. What I get from John is "I'm an old redneck who wants to ride out my final few years as comfortably as possible". 

[wrestle87]

Just now, NM1965 said:

The Brands "brand" has been anger, but I've never gotten that image from John Smith. What I get from John is "I'm an old redneck who wants to ride out my final few years as comfortably as possible". 

I felt that way for a long time, but then Flo and a few other places got some really good interviews with wrestlers who were in the room with him, and my goodness the stories they tell, but more importantly the look on all their faces when they talk about it.  Specifically, the places where it comes through are if you go listen to interviews with both the Perry brothers, and then Daniel Cormier, Mark Munoz, Chris Pendleton, Jordan Oliver and Eric Guerrero all have some real stories to tell.

That, plus watching the sort of condition that he put his guys out on the mat in over the past decade, and the crap he did to his wrestlers with weight cutting, plus basically breaking his own son's spirit and driving him out of the sport, J Smith in my opinion is like a Dan Gable/ Tom & Terry who didn't care about the long term wellbeing of his guys.  Gable and T&T at least have an eye towards helping the most emotionally wounded or emotionally unstable, they have that fatherly drive to fix those they see their younger selves in(Gable --> Terry, T&T -->Desanto).  I have never heard a single positive thing coming from a wrestlers mouth about how the experience of being in the Oklahoma State room did anything other than making them better technically as wrestlers.  

Now, I WILL say, Coleman Scott is doing something right.  The team this year has kicked this trend.  But if you go check out the teams of the 2010's, especially the late 2010's, oh boy, just a meat grinder.  

[NM1965]

I'm a little surprised. I knew about the weight cutting nonsense, mostly because of Marstellar and I knew about issues with his boy, who seems to have regressed after his 2nd year at OSU, but I didn't know there was so much other negativity (except for how Smith screwed over Chandler Rogers). Agreed on Coleman Scott, he's been a boon to the Cowboys. I'd like to see OSU officially make Scott the HC, but I expect we'll see several more disappointing OSU seasons before that happens (if ever). 

Edited March 11 by NM1965

[JuanMogen]

4 hours ago, NM1965 said:

Is Eierman on the staff at Iowa? He seems like an easy hire to address scrambling deficiencies. 

God willing. Hope he teaches them how to scramble, and Nick Lee adds his two cents to Penn State. Few things in life felt more right than Nick Lee burying Eierman in the finals. Thanks for the memories. 

[VakAttack]

35 minutes ago, TylerDurden said:

Track wrestling showed Riggins with 7 in the stats drop down, but it looks they included the mini-tournament for placements. So my bad for missing that.

We still don't know what the suspended guys would have done, but Franek and Kennedy scored more this year than Siebrecht and Brands did last year at the same weights (+5). I agree Iowa was depleted (self-inflicted) and it impacted things, but my larger point was that I don't think this is all on the suspensions. They had big shoes to fill this season regardless of the suspensions.

I'm not on the "Iowa is toast" boat, but I do think Iowa has some work to do. 

The other thing is if Iowa had not lost the guys to suspension it also would have affected Michigan's placements, bring their point totals down.  Either way, we're arguing about ephemeral things.  There were factors at play that negatively affected Iowa that no other school had to deal with.  I think they're solidly second, but even if it's just arguably second, it's a difference, and nobody expected them to compete with Penn State anyway this year. 

They've got some good recruits coming in, notably the younger Ferrari who doesn't have any individual red flags (obviously the brothers...different story, and so that may tell out, but everything I've heard about Angelo is that he is different than the two older ones, even while he loves his brothers) and Leo Deluca, plus Arnold and Kueter in the lineup next year...anyway, we'll see.  My bigger concern remains the scrambling deficiencies.

[dragit]

9 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

They've got some good recruits coming in, notably the younger Ferrari who doesn't have any individual red flags (obviously the brothers...different story, and so that may tell out, but everything I've heard about Angelo is that he is different than the two older ones, even while he loves his brothers) and Leo Deluca, plus Arnold and Kueter in the lineup next year...anyway, we'll see.  My bigger concern remains the scrambling deficiencies.

I think we can be pretty sure the scrambling deficiencies won't get addressed with this coaching staff, and I think it's a fair point that has been raised in this and/or other threads that Tom wouldn't hire someone who thinks that far out of his box.  

That's a pretty hopeful take on the Ferrari situation to believe that you can have only the good and none of the bad.  

[VakAttack]

13 minutes ago, dragit said:

 

That's a pretty hopeful take on the Ferrari situation to believe that you can have only the good and none of the bad.  

I agree.  I've said from the beginning, before anything happened at Iowa or even Angelo committed, I would recruit Angelo only and not the brothers.  It's the only situation I want Iowa involved with the Ferraris.  And it seems more possible now, but I agree, it's a little pie in the sky.

[fishbane]

5 hours ago, Dogbone said:

Not an Iowa fan, but Iowa was the favorite in 2020, National Champs in 2021 and were runner up last year.  I don't think anyone was beating PSU this year but the gambling issues didn't help Iowa.

If questions are being asked of the Brandses I don't think the gambling issues are something that could be used as extenuating circumstances to explain the poor performance like injuries.  Gambling is indiscipline and more of a negative mark on them than something excusable. 

2 hours ago, JimmyCinnabon said:

Tom & Terry are still elite college coaches. I'm not an Iowa fan but I think they'd be nuts to get rid of them. Finding coaches that are at their level isn't easy and if it was you'd see a lot more programs doing a lot better.

Zalesky was an elite coach in 2006.  There were difficult questions about the team's performance in 2006 and I am sure there are some now along with questions about discipline (gambling, Ferrari, gun play, ect.).  The difference is there is no easy answer like there was in 2006.  If Brands had a few assistants that were world champs leave and start to out recruit him at smaller programs then there would be both problems and a ready solution.  If the AD were to can Brands, Iowa would have an equally difficult question to address.  Less risky to stick with them.

[dragit]

Just now, VakAttack said:

I agree.  I've said from the beginning, before anything happened at Iowa or even Angelo committed, I would recruit Angelo only and not the brothers.  It's the only situation I want Iowa involved with the Ferraris.  And it seems more possible now, but I agree, it's a little pie in the sky.

I don't have any knowledge, but for arguments sake will stipulate he's a good kid, but it still seems you need good faith from the family to let him live his separate life--and "good faith" and "Ferrari family" don't seem like a good fit in the same sentence.

[Pinnacle]

PSA

Flo is apparently dropping another Spencer Lee documentary tonite, this one paired with Austin DeSanto and their high school rivalry. 8pm on BTN. 

Source is thread on GoIowaAwesome. 

Edited March 11 by Pinnacle

[CHROMEBIRD]

2 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

PSA

Flo is apparently dropping another Spencer Lee documentary tonite, this one paired with Austin DeSanto and their high school rivalry. 8pm on BTN. 

Source is thread on GoIowaAwesome. 

Coulda swore they did this docu not too long after their PIAA match?