Should USA coaches/RTC help foreign athletes beat Americans?

[jchapman]

49 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

RBY has never represented the US at the Senior level. MX would be his only sports-nationality, so he'd be able to do a one time switch to the US team if he wanted to. Or are you referring to a USAW rule?

Oops, I thought he repped USA at the Senior level.

[Pa in Taiwan]

On 3/6/2024 at 4:12 AM, SocraTease said:

That's not necessarily how citizenship works in many countries (which has to provide a guide for this process legally), and it varies from nation to nation.  If you were born to American parents in a foreign country, you are still American.  But you might also get dual citizenship in certain ways—e.g., marry someone from another country.

To clarify your statement, if you are born with ONE American parent in a foreign country, you are a natural born American citizen. You can run for and become the President of the United States. Contrast this with "naturalized citizen", which refers to someone who was born the citizen of another country, not a dual-citizen of the United States, who later became a citizen of the US. These people can not become the President of the US, someone like Arnold Shwarzenegger. 

Regarding citizenship, I have recently found out that I am eligible for Italian citizenship, as my great-grandfather, an immigrant to the US, never naturalized, or became a US citizen, in his lifetime. That means that his son (my grandfather), born in the US, a citizen who fought for the US in WW1, was an Italian citizen; my father, because my grandfather was the son of an Italian citizen, was also an Italian citizen, though my dad never knew it during his life. My brother has recently applied, provided evidence, and received Italian citizenship. Any grandchild of my grandfather can now follow the trail that my brother broke and get Italian citizenship. Don't worry! They're all too old to go over there and wrestle for Italy!

[1032004]

Gomez rubbing it in…

 

[Yankeefan33]

On 3/4/2024 at 8:58 PM, Lipdrag said:

Compliments, Dogbone and the other posters, for a very interesting topic and the responses.  I see pretty strong arguments both for and against training the athletes who will compete for other countries in the Olympics.  I come down on the side of train with them because to be the best you have to beat the best without excuses.  However, the call was closer than I thought it would be and I do reserve the right to modify my opinion based on the strength of arguments posted here by those wiser than I am.

Been thinking about this for a while now, and in general I love guys wrestling for other countries. I will throw out this caveat: I saw Alec Pantaleo and Austin Gomez in a photo together after a training session before Pan-Am Olympic qualifiers. If I'm Pantaleo, why would I want Austin Gomez to get better PRE-Qualifying?. I guess my logic is this:

1. Pantaleo wrestles at the same weight as Gomez, and neither have qualified the weight

2. Pantaleo is helping Gomez get better, and while Pantaleo is also getting better, Gomez was competing directly for the Olympic spot

3. With Gomez beating Lee, it directly hurts Pantaleo's chances at making the Olympics by adding another tourney he has to wrestle

 

Train after qualifying? Cool. Train at different weights? Perfect. It just doesn't make sense to me in this situation to help the other guy. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 3/5/2024 at 2:51 PM, 1032004 said:

I think it was discussed in the past that Jamaica has very easy requirements to become a citizen, I know Angus Arthur was competing for them not sure if he still is.  And I believe their Olympic qualifier is historically one of the easier ones…

 

Yeah.  Pan Ams.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 3/6/2024 at 3:34 PM, Dogbone said:

I believe they or their families had to defect from Cuba and can't go back.  I don't think it is likely they rep Cuba, even if they want to

Not so sure about this anymore.  It seems to have gotten a bit muddled.  Yoel Romero defected, but I'm pretty sure he eventually was allowed to return.  Cuba was taxing him a % of his winnings, if I recall.  They have been doing the same with MLB players.  They need money badly.

[steamboat_charlie]

I don't think it's quite as simple as "a rising tide lifts all boats."  There are limited spots at the Olympics and World's, we're currently seeing this play out in front of our eyes.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

3 minutes ago, steamboat_charlie said:

I don't think it's quite as simple as "a rising tide lifts all boats."  There are limited spots at the Olympics and World's, we're currently seeing this play out in front of our eyes.  

And  Gomez is laughing at us.

[1032004]

2 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Yeah.  Pan Ams.

Ah duh lol.  Is there an American wrestling for someone in the Africa qualifier?

[Lleynor]

2 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

And  Gomez is laughing at us.

This is why I will never pull for him, RBY, or any other defector. 

There is no way in hell I'm supporting anyone on an International Level when the Red, White, and Blue are there. Zero, zilch, never. 

It shocks me that this is even a discussion of this matter. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

17 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Gomez rubbing it in…

Kind of a weird flex to duck literally the entire national competition and then make fun of them for... not ducking the entire national competition

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

20 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Kind of a weird flex to duck literally the entire national competition and then make fun of them for... not ducking the entire national competition

Well, you can certainly understand his point.  Dude got smashed by a sophomore in NCAA finals.  

[CHROMEBIRD]

2 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Well, you can certainly understand his point.  Dude got smashed by a sophomore in NCAA finals.  

Yep. I meant it's not a good look for Gomez to run away from the challenge tournament and then taunting the field for battling it out

[wrestle87]

This is not entirely unique to wrestling, but somewhat.  

The only time somebody takes this route, it seems to be because it is so much more positive or enjoyable to be able to traverse the olympic process without having the added burden of dealing with qualifying.  

Bekzod and Gomez (franklin) had been at PSU for a long time before this became a bigger topic, and by and large, regardless of who athletes represent, the US isn't at Dagestan levels of competition, the more olympic athletes who can be brought into a particular room, the US is still in a position where middle level athletes getting to spend time around olympians is a real treat.  

I think we are a long way away from having a situation where more olympians in a room is a bad thing.  Do they wind up competing eventually? Yes...but past a certain point, many many athletes will develop some form of relationship or friendship, it's just such a small sport once you get to the top.  

[1032004]

53 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

This is not entirely unique to wrestling, but somewhat.  

The only time somebody takes this route, it seems to be because it is so much more positive or enjoyable to be able to traverse the olympic process without having the added burden of dealing with qualifying.  

Bekzod and Gomez (franklin) had been at PSU for a long time before this became a bigger topic, and by and large, regardless of who athletes represent, the US isn't at Dagestan levels of competition, the more olympic athletes who can be brought into a particular room, the US is still in a position where middle level athletes getting to spend time around olympians is a real treat.  

I think we are a long way away from having a situation where more olympians in a room is a bad thing.  Do they wind up competing eventually? Yes...but past a certain point, many many athletes will develop some form of relationship or friendship, it's just such a small sport once you get to the top.  

Bekzod and Franklin Gomez had actually lived in the countries they represented, I don’t believe Micic, RBY, Gomez, Rivera, Cruz or Amine (among others) had.  

I don’t have an issue with guys competing for other countries, but I think we’re at the point where it’s not good for USA wrestling when you’ve got Americans winning world golds for other countries, and not 1, not 2, but 3 Americans already qualified for the Olympics at 57kg (and 2 at 65kg), but no USA wrestlers.  I’m no Dagestan expert, but based on those numbers I kinda think we are at that level now.

[CHROMEBIRD]

No argument there. US-based wrestlers competing for other countries is also a sign of success like we see in Russia, as you alluded to. Didn't Bimeh Razialso  recruit JB and Helen Maroulis to wrestle for Iran at a Clubs Cup one year?

[bnwtwg]

On 4/3/2024 at 11:08 AM, Lleynor said:

This is why I will never pull for him, RBY, or any other defector. 

There is no way in hell I'm supporting anyone on an International Level when the Red, White, and Blue are there. Zero, zilch, never. 

It shocks me that this is even a discussion of this matter. 

I bet if you were good enough to go this route you would have a different opinion.

[1032004]

On 4/6/2024 at 6:39 AM, bnwtwg said:

I bet if you were good enough to go this route you would have a different opinion.

You can root for them against everyone except for the US, but you should never root for them when they wrestle the US.  But I have a feeling many PSU and Michigan fans would root for RBY and Micic if they wrestle Spencer Lee for example.

[CHROMEBIRD]

6 hours ago, 1032004 said:

You can root for them against everyone except for the US, but you should never root for them when they wrestle the US.  But I have a feeling many PSU and Michigan fans would root for RBY and Micic if they wrestle Spencer Lee for example.

Is that the sport's doing? We prioritize the accomplishments of individuals over teams.

[Lipdrag]

On 4/3/2024 at 12:08 PM, Lleynor said:

This is why I will never pull for him, RBY, or any other defector. 

There is no way in hell I'm supporting anyone on an International Level when the Red, White, and Blue are there. Zero, zilch, never. 

It shocks me that this is even a discussion of this matter. 

I used to think that until Rapinoe and the US women's soccer team totally trashed all good will that had been built up by their predecessors and betters over a couple decades.  So, if a wrestler wearing our colors chooses an international stage to exercise first amendment rights (rather than expressing them by not competing for the USA) and freely expresses his/her disdain for me and this country then, like the women's soccer team, I have no time for them and will support whomever is playing/wrestling against them.  Even Ruskies, Iranians, or defectors.

Now, on to a less incendiary take on the point:  I can root for one of the defectors as my back-up favorite until the point of a head to head matchup with the USA wrestler because I am sure that none of our wrestlers are idiot enough to stage such a protest at such a venue.

[bnwtwg]

On 4/7/2024 at 9:26 PM, Lipdrag said:

I used to think that until Rapinoe and the US women's soccer team totally trashed all good will that had been built up by their predecessors and betters over a couple decades.  So, if a wrestler wearing our colors chooses an international stage to exercise first amendment rights (rather than expressing them by not competing for the USA) and freely expresses his/her disdain for me and this country then, like the women's soccer team, I have no time for them and will support whomever is playing/wrestling against them.  Even Ruskies, Iranians, or defectors.

Now, on to a less incendiary take on the point:  I can root for one of the defectors as my back-up favorite until the point of a head to head matchup with the USA wrestler because I am sure that none of our wrestlers are idiot enough to stage such a protest at such a venue.

Oh no not the gay women producing at the highest level! Hit the bricks and drag your lip tf outta here.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 4/6/2024 at 6:39 AM, bnwtwg said:

I bet if you were good enough to go this route you would have a different opinion.

Not necessarily.  I could have gone that route (as several training partners did), but would have gotten absolutely smashed at the world/Olympic level.  It wasn't worth the time or money investment, but also would have felt weird to rep another country.  Additionally, Olympic qualification was becoming a thing and I wouldn't have made it out of the qualifier, though I'm not sure which cycle it went into place.

And I agree with Lleynor.  I would never root for one of the Americans wearing another color vs. USA.  Except maybe if Fix were involved.

Edited April 9 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[Caveira]

20 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Oh no not the gay women producing at the highest level! Hit the bricks and drag your lip tf outta here.

Rapinoe is an America hating tool bag.  It has nothing to do with whose genitalia she likes to cozy up to.  

Edited April 9 by Caveira

[Lipdrag]

20 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Oh no not the gay women producing at the highest level! Hit the bricks and drag your lip tf outta here.

Rapinoe's gay?  Did not know.  Do not care.  I do not care whose peepee she wants to play with.  My beef with her is her.  Not her lovers.