Should USA coaches/RTC help foreign athletes beat Americans?

[Dogbone]

First, I have no issues if someone wants to pursue their dreams to make the Olympics and chooses the path of least resistance by competing for another country.  And I will root for them when they are not competing against everyone except someone repping USA .

But do USA wrestling resources aid these same competitors?  Generally curious, if I donate to USA Wrestling does a portion of any of that go to the Cliff Keen RTC, which supports a lot of athletes competing for other countries?  I don't know how the RTC funding works.  

What about coaches? Can Cael coach RBY and then switch to a USA shirt and later corner David Taylor at the same events?  Hypothetical, but curious on everyone's thoughts.

[Truzzcat]

I'm personally of the belief that having as many good guys in your room can only be a benefit, a good example of that obviously being NLWC and now Michigan's RTC I believe they have 4 Olympians in there now. However I think the united states is starting to approach Russia territory where we have 2-3 legit medal threats at every weight and in many instances in the same room and while that's awesome you do start to wonder if you want to prioritize the guys who will be representing the red, white and blue. Although I think the more American's in worlds/Olympics the better even if it does not show in team standings it grows the sport domestically.

[CHROMEBIRD]

Good question about the USAW-RTC resources, but when it comes to senior level wrestling are the RTCs incentivized to do what's best for themselves and their athletes, or what's best for USAW? Especially when there are incongruences.

And just to play this out: do fans care more about USAW or individual athletes and their RTCs? Many of the RTCs are "attached" to a D1 program, so the fandom sometimes carries over. While many support whoever is repping the US, others will root against wrestlers because of the RTC they come from (esp HWC and NLWC). 

[bnwtwg]

America is a capitalist economy. This includes companies with international reaches both foreign and domestic.

Each RTC strives to be the best above all others.

RTCs making international inroads is as American as apple pie flavored capitalism.

 

[Lipdrag]

Compliments, Dogbone and the other posters, for a very interesting topic and the responses.  I see pretty strong arguments both for and against training the athletes who will compete for other countries in the Olympics.  I come down on the side of train with them because to be the best you have to beat the best without excuses.  However, the call was closer than I thought it would be and I do reserve the right to modify my opinion based on the strength of arguments posted here by those wiser than I am.

[Hammerlock3]

I'd be curious for someone in support of these athletes to point out where they draw the line in terms of what should constitute citizenship.

[Daddy Dave]

The point of wrestlers jumping ship is moot. If they really thought they could win Gold they would have stayed in the US to do it, but in each case we know there is that guy or guys, who made their odds very low. Doing it for grandpa was an afterthought. 57 and 65 haven't been very kind to the US, changing singlets won't win you a medal. Beyond the US there is a lineup of killers waiting in the wings. My bet is no medals in those singlets, it's about winning.

[SocraTease]

It happens all the time in other sports.  In track and field, many of the top athletes attend US colleges and stay here to train before competing for their "home" countries at international events.

Why all the attention on a narrow nationalism (jingoism and xenophobia) and countries? We live in an increasingly globalized world where nearly everything moves across fairly porous borders:  ideas, animals, consumer goods, people, air, viruses, water, technology, pollution, etc.

The movement of wrestlers likely increases the level of competition and pushes the sport along to higher levels.  If guys from the US (or Dagestan) can make it to the Olympics or Worlds elsewhere and win medals, then it's clear that the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th best guys here, for example, are better than the top guys at a weight in Mexico or Serbia.  

If you are a fan of RBY or Gomez here, why not root for them when they compete for Mexico?  They aren't taking a US spot.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

21 minutes ago, SocraTease said:

 

If you are a fan of RBY or Gomez here, why not root for them when they compete for Mexico?  They aren't taking a US spot.  

A lot of people would disagree with this point.

[FanOfPurdueWrestling]

16 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

I'd be curious for someone in support of these athletes to point out where they draw the line in terms of what should constitute citizenship.

This is my biggest point of contention. I don’t know what we consider to be a citizen, I don’t care that people go represent other countries but what’s stopping anyone from trying to represent any country? 
 

It needs to be stricter, maybe parents born there or similar. I don’t have the answer but I wish I understood it as is. 

[Hammerlock3]

23 minutes ago, FanOfPurdueWrestling said:

This is my biggest point of contention. I don’t know what we consider to be a citizen, I don’t care that people go represent other countries but what’s stopping anyone from trying to represent any country? 
 

It needs to be stricter, maybe parents born there or similar. I don’t have the answer but I wish I understood it as is. 

It just seems to me that you should have been born there, or actually actually live there.

[SocraTease]

21 minutes ago, FanOfPurdueWrestling said:

This is my biggest point of contention. I don’t know what we consider to be a citizen, I don’t care that people go represent other countries but what’s stopping anyone from trying to represent any country? 
 

It needs to be stricter, maybe parents born there or similar. I don’t have the answer but I wish I understood it as is. 

There are criteria in place having to do with citizenship, including where your parents (and perhaps grandparents) are born, or where you are born.  You can't just transfer anywhere you like.   You likely can marry into citizenship.  I know there is a waiting period and usually a fee to be paid.   In fact, here is a link to UWW rules, which I will admit I have not yet read. If the link doesn't work, google "uww international rules for the change of nationality"

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://uww.org/sites/default/files/media/document/international_rules_for_the_change_of_nationality_dec_15_eng.pdf

 

[1032004]

20 minutes ago, SocraTease said:

There are criteria in place having to do with citizenship, including where your parents (and perhaps grandparents) are born, or where you are born.  You can't just transfer anywhere you like.   You likely can marry into citizenship.  I know there is a waiting period and usually a fee to be paid.   In fact, here is a link to UWW rules, which I will admit I have not yet read. If the link doesn't work, google "uww international rules for the change of nationality"

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://uww.org/sites/default/files/media/document/international_rules_for_the_change_of_nationality_dec_15_eng.pdf

 

I think it was discussed in the past that Jamaica has very easy requirements to become a citizen, I know Angus Arthur was competing for them not sure if he still is.  And I believe their Olympic qualifier is historically one of the easier ones…

 

[1032004]

5 hours ago, Daddy Dave said:

The point of wrestlers jumping ship is moot. If they really thought they could win Gold they would have stayed in the US to do it, but in each case we know there is that guy or guys, who made their odds very low. Doing it for grandpa was an afterthought. 57 and 65 haven't been very kind to the US, changing singlets won't win you a medal. 

It did for Micic and Rivera…

[FanOfPurdueWrestling]

32 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

It just seems to me that you should have been born there, or actually actually live there.

That’s what I’m saying!!! Like if you were born there, live there, train there, etc. and you just came here for college of course you can and probably should represent your country (think of Echemendia or  Bastida, they’re likely going to go rep Cuba post grad if they wish to continue, which I hope they do. Or even Lachlan McNeal for Canada.)

 

But to just be like “on yeah my grandpa was born in Mexico so I want to represent them” doesn’t sit well. 
 

I am all for sending US trained athletes everywhere to compete, but there needs to be some way to legitimize the process so it’s not just Russia, the US, etc. sending their guys to rep a smaller or lesser wrestling nation to avoid winning the team spot. 
 

Maybe instead of focusing on sending our guys to other countries we should focus on bringing other countries to us to train and send them back home when worlds, Olympics, etc. come around to rep where they’re from. 

[SocraTease]

1 minute ago, FanOfPurdueWrestling said:

That’s what I’m saying!!! Like if you were born there, live there, train there, etc. and you just came here for college of course you can and probably should represent your country (think of Echemendia or  Bastida, they’re likely going to go rep Cuba post grad if they wish to continue, which I hope they do. Or even Lachlan McNeal for Canada.)

 

But to just be like “on yeah my grandpa was born in Mexico so I want to represent them” doesn’t sit well. 
 

I am all for sending US trained athletes everywhere to compete, but there needs to be some way to legitimize the process so it’s not just Russia, the US, etc. sending their guys to rep a smaller or lesser wrestling nation to avoid winning the team spot. 
 

Maybe instead of focusing on sending our guys to other countries we should focus on bringing other countries to us to train and send them back home when worlds, Olympics, etc. come around to rep where they’re from. 

That's not necessarily how citizenship works in many countries (which has to provide a guide for this process legally), and it varies from nation to nation.  If you were born to American parents in a foreign country, you are still American.  But you might also get dual citizenship in certain ways—e.g., marry someone from another country.

[FanOfPurdueWrestling]

1 minute ago, SocraTease said:

That's not necessarily how citizenship works in many countries (which has to provide a guide for this process legally), and it varies from nation to nation.  If you were born to American parents in a foreign country, you are still American.  But you might also get dual citizenship in certain ways—e.g., marry someone from another country.

So the criteria is to have that countries citizenship? I guess that makes it fine by me, you’re a citizen, you can compete for them. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

UWW actually has a development restitution rule for Olympic, World, or Continental medalists who switch countries. The idea being that the athlete's new country should pay a one-time fee to compensate the old one for the training and development that they spent on a wrestler, up to around $350k USD. 

If RBY (for example) won Olympic gold and decided to come back and compete for the US,  it would be pretty funny if Mexico's national wrestling federation (FEMELA) invoiced USAW $350k in training and development expenses. Oh, the fireworks!

[Daddy Dave]

It did for Micic and Rivera…

Sort of, but I was referring to the Olympics. Not Positive, but I recall Riveras half being very weak and with a bye or two? And Micic won't be weighing in his bedroom this time- so we shall c how Paris works out. I stand by no medals for the recent transients. 

[1032004]

7 hours ago, Daddy Dave said:

It did for Micic and Rivera…

Sort of, but I was referring to the Olympics. Not Positive, but I recall Riveras half being very weak and with a bye or two? And Micic won't be weighing in his bedroom this time- so we shall c how Paris works out. I stand by no medals for the recent transients. 

Ok, it worked for Myles Amine

[jchapman]

14 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

UWW actually has a development restitution rule for Olympic, World, or Continental medalists who switch countries. The idea being that the athlete's new country should pay a one-time fee to compensate the old one for the training and development that they spent on a wrestler, up to around $350k USD. 

If RBY (for example) won Olympic gold and decided to come back and compete for the US,  it would be pretty funny if Mexico's national wrestling federation (FEMELA) invoiced USAW $350k in training and development expenses. Oh, the fireworks!

RBY can't come back and compete for the US.  Once you leave and represent another country, you can't rep the USA again.

[jchapman]

From the RTC criteria page:

International athletes/coaches who currently represent a country other than the U.S. may attend on a limited basis based on approval of the NGB and RTC. These individuals must be of similar competitive caliber. These individuals may attend on an intermittent basis in order to enhance national team development.

[CHROMEBIRD]

3 hours ago, jchapman said:

RBY can't come back and compete for the US.  Once you leave and represent another country, you can't rep the USA again.

RBY has never represented the US at the Senior level. MX would be his only sports-nationality, so he'd be able to do a one time switch to the US team if he wanted to. Or are you referring to a USAW rule?

[Dogbone]

On 3/5/2024 at 2:07 PM, FanOfPurdueWrestling said:

That’s what I’m saying!!! Like if you were born there, live there, train there, etc. and you just came here for college of course you can and probably should represent your country (think of Echemendia or  Bastida, they’re likely going to go rep Cuba post grad if they wish to continue, which I hope they do. Or even Lachlan McNeal for Canada.)

 

 

I believe they or their families had to defect from Cuba and can't go back.  I don't think it is likely they rep Cuba, even if they want to

[Dogbone]

On 3/4/2024 at 3:48 PM, CHROMEBIRD said:

Good question about the USAW-RTC resources, but when it comes to senior level wrestling are the RTCs incentivized to do what's best for themselves and their athletes, or what's best for USAW? Especially when there are incongruences.

And just to play this out: do fans care more about USAW or individual athletes and their RTCs? Many of the RTCs are "attached" to a D1 program, so the fandom sometimes carries over. While many support whoever is repping the US, others will root against wrestlers because of the RTC they come from (esp HWC and NLWC). 

I think the RTC/colleges should do what's best for their athletes.  I am more curious about the USAW resources. 

Both Micic and Gomez repped USA at age level world championships.  Presumably went to training camps and received USAW coaching.  

I don't care that Micic and Gomez wrestle for foreign countries or that Cliff Keen trains them, but I am not sure how I feel about USAW resources being used to beat American athletes. 

You raise a good question about fandom, were Michigan fans rooting for Gomez to beat Lee and prevent the US from an Olympic spot?    That seems weird to me but I might be in the minority.