Border Wars

[ThreePointTakedown]

15 hours ago, mspart said:

Here is the border policy.   Ignore current laws and regulations.   Allow as many illegals into the country as can be tolerated.   102k people transitioned to sanctuary cities is ample witness of the above.  

What is the plan?   https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/immigration/border-coverage/biden-shut-down-congress-bill/

President Joe Biden has vowed to shut down the U.S.-Mexico border “when it becomes overwhelmed” if Congress approves a bipartisan border security deal.

This says all you need to know.   Nothing will change if the bill passes or not.   Biden will ignore the new law just like he is ignoring current law.    If what you see reported suggests to you that the border is closed, then what would convince you that the border is open?  

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/record-number-migrant-border-crossings-december-2023/

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/whats-behind-the-influx-of-migrants-crossing-the-u-s-southern-border

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/11/09/whats-happening-at-the-u-s-mexico-border-in-7-charts/

These charts show an indication that the border is not closed.    If not closed, then the alternative conclusion would be open.  

mspart

I don't disagree with the fact that many people are coming. I get that. But the border has been and will almost certainly remain 'open' in the sense that people are allowed through for one reason or another. It was like that for Republican and Democratic Presidents, alike. 

Is it only recently that an 'open'(vs closed) border has become a real issue with you or has it always been that way? If so, why do you think that is? 

[JimmyBT]

14 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

I don't disagree with the fact that many people are coming. I get that. But the border has been and will almost certainly remain 'open' in the sense that people are allowed through for one reason or another. It was like that for Republican and Democratic Presidents, alike. 

Is it only recently that an 'open'(vs closed) border has become a real issue with you or has it always been that way? If so, why do you think that is? 

Because you have a president ignoring that it’s open. 

[Husker_Du]

24 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

I don't disagree with the fact that many people are coming. I get that. But the border has been and will almost certainly remain 'open' in the sense that people are allowed through for one reason or another. It was like that for Republican and Democratic Presidents, alike. 

Is it only recently that an 'open'(vs closed) border has become a real issue with you or has it always been that way? If so, why do you think that is? 

again with the naivety.

why do liberals act like this is normal when1)  the numbers are unprecedented 2) biden ran on undoing everything trump put in place 3) biden made good on those promises and undid everything

[ThreePointTakedown]

15 hours ago, Lipdrag said:

Us?  Which us?  Allen Foster Dulles? Theodore Roosevelt?   

Whom of us treated these people poorly and deserve what we are getting?  The people of Chicago whose schools were shut down to house these - according to you - people simply giving the people of Chicago what they deserve?  The people of Denver whose hospital systems are claiming near collapse?  Are those Denverites the ones who deserve this because they did something to the 100+ countries from which strollers are walking and swimming into Texas?  Or is it the people of El Paso, Eagle Pass, Laredo, Brownsville, and every other border town who negatively affected people in 100+ countries and therefore deserve this and are just playing hot potato by passing their deserved punishment on to the those less deserving people in New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Massachusetts, Denver, etc. who don't really deserve it

I have a couple questions for TD3 in particular and the whole "we deserve the close and personal presence of uninvited non-Americans in our lives" crowd: 

- Why don't the 81 million voters/endorsers for this open border policy (Biden said he was going to do it.  He did not equivocate about it) identify themselves and take in a strapping young military aged man to sleep in their daughter's bedroom, eat their food, watch their TV, drive their car, get an equal vote on all household matters, etc. while he awaits his immigration hearing?  3 million BIden-illegals leave another 78 million Biden voters with a welcoming house, food, utilities, etc. to share with their new besties.

- How many illegals per day is the number we deserve?  10,000 a day doesn't seem to make you blanche.  How about 20,000 a day?  50,000?  When do even you say, "Ok, that XXX millionth illegal alien in the country giving us what we deserve now makes it right.  Commence normal immigration law enforcement and rational policies again."?

Common defense from people trying to unburden their conscience. 

'I am not responsible for the horrible things done in the past. My decedents stole from their decedents, but I owe them nothing despite the wealth and privilege I now enjoy, because they didn't ask for it back soon enough.' 

To answer your first question, we do. We know what happened. We know the effects. We know who was responsible. We live with the wealth they stole. Now the people they stole it from are asking for help(by coming to our house and asking for some of the wealth we stole). You want to kick them out. That is a heartless and ignorant thing to do. Will we need to sacrifice and suffer a bit in order to make things right? Probably. Can the crimes of the past ever be adequately remedied? Maybe, but first we need to take the first steps. 

I don't envy the governors of the border states. They have been otherizing people at the border for decades and now they can't change their minds for fear of being laughed at on a message board. Its the 'sunken cost' fallacy. Its what everyone does on this board when they know they're wrong. Lash out and make more and more ridiculous arguments because they are no longer trying to convince the other person. They are just trying to hold on to a belief that is close to slipping away. Reckoning with one's bigotry or simple misinformation can be powerful. 

What are you afraid of that gets you so riled up? What is the scenario you play in your head that gets you to write all this? 

[ThreePointTakedown]

12 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

the self imposed naivety of biden apologists is among the most impressive phenomena of all time

I know. Asking for someone to tell me what they mean by a thing instead of assuming. What an idiot? Am I right?! Heaven forbid we talk about the same thing using the same terms. 

[ThreePointTakedown]

8 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Don't... and I mean don't. 

You think it's funny to call the US, and US history "crappy"? 

Whoever the f' you are. Stop that shit right now.

Not sure what you mean. Don't bring up bad things from the past or in fact DO those things because 'the more you know'? 

[JimmyBT]

8 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Not sure what you mean. Don't bring up bad things from the past or in fact DO those things because 'the more you know'? 

Every country on this planet has been involved in slavery. Some in fact still are. Most Americans ancestry starts after slavery was abolished. Presidents like Clinton, Bush and Obama have slavery in their family history while Trumps family didn’t come here until after it was abolished.  Most Americans fall into the category that trumps family does and came here to escape the world wars and other forms of persecution.  They came here for the pursuit of happiness and a better life than where they came from. So even with all its faults (all of which every country has and most far worse) America is far down on the list of broken countries.  Anyone and everyone is welcome here …………..

 L. E. G. A. L. L. Y. 

[Bigbrog]

Never understood the attitude, well in our history we did bad things in order to be in the position we are today, yet we should give it "all" back??  And I am not even sure what we stole and what we need to give back...yet alone how I am now privileged?  If being fortunate enough to have been born in the US is "bad" or a "privilege" than I guess I am privileged that my parents happen to be living in the US when they conceived me and had me.  SMH

[JimmyBT]

Not sure how true it is as I haven’t researched it but I ran across an article where it said Lavar Burton recently discovered that he has confederate soldier in his family history.  If this is true does he have to acknowledge his privilege while getting credit for making something of himself???  Kinda confusing  

[ThreePointTakedown]

23 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

Never understood the attitude, well in our history we did bad things in order to be in the position we are today, yet we should give it "all" back??  And I am not even sure what we stole and what we need to give back...yet alone how I am now privileged?  If being fortunate enough to have been born in the US is "bad" or a "privilege" than I guess I am privileged that my parents happen to be living in the US when they conceived me and had me.  SMH

Its quite clear that you don't understand. Having to confront anything traumatic or traumatizing from your past is difficult. Threatens to open up more wounds. This I feel is where I lose you. Talking about feelings and trauma. Toxic responses to those subjects will continue to keep people from being able to confront them and begin to heal. 

As a country, our parents(framers) didn't really know what they were doing. This new thing came about and they were just trying to make it work. The practices of the day were arcane and backwards. We know better now. But sweeping it under the rug and pretending it never happened because you feel bad is not a solution. Your 'devil's advocate' response is not surprising. Making yourself feel better in knowing the horrible things your family was responsible for is a trauma response. I'll bet you don't even realize you're doing it. If you talk to someone they can point out that it is pretty common and not in and of itself bad. Just doesn't help in healing. 

[ThreePointTakedown]

28 minutes ago, JimmyBT said:

Not sure how true it is as I haven’t researched it but I ran across an article where it said Lavar Burton recently discovered that he has confederate soldier in his family history.  If this is true does he have to acknowledge his privilege while getting credit for making something of himself???  Kinda confusing  

It is confusing. Agreed. The more we talk about it, honestly, the less confusing it will be. 

[JimmyBT]

4 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

It is confusing. Agreed. The more we talk about it, honestly, the less confusing it will be. 

So answer the question. Would Lavar burton have to admit his privilege?  Would/should he still get reparations ?  Or does he get reparations and then have to give it back?..

Edited January 30 by JimmyBT

[Bigbrog]

19 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Its quite clear that you don't understand. Having to confront anything traumatic or traumatizing from your past is difficult. Threatens to open up more wounds. This I feel is where I lose you. Talking about feelings and trauma. Toxic responses to those subjects will continue to keep people from being able to confront them and begin to heal. 

As a country, our parents(framers) didn't really know what they were doing. This new thing came about and they were just trying to make it work. The practices of the day were arcane and backwards. We know better now. But sweeping it under the rug and pretending it never happened because you feel bad is not a solution. Your 'devil's advocate' response is not surprising. Making yourself feel better in knowing the horrible things your family was responsible for is a trauma response. I'll bet you don't even realize you're doing it. If you talk to someone they can point out that it is pretty common and not in and of itself bad. Just doesn't help in healing. 

LOL...once again you have no idea what in the hell you are talking about.  You have no idea what trauma I have had in my life nor how or when I addressed it so stop with your stupid b.s.  As far as the country and it's history, NO ONE has brushed anything under the rug or is ignoring it.  Second you once again have no idea who I am or who my family is or where we came from.  But point being, what the heck does it matter if my family was from Russia or Australia??  For clarity for you and your completely asinine assumptions, my family is from Norway and never had anything to do with slavery or what happened to the Native American's, Mexico, Latin America, etc.  But again, what is someone to do if their family history did have something to do with those horrible things???  Give something back for something they had no hand in??  Still don't know what it is that people like you want today's society to give back to make up for bad things in the past??  And how will that fix anything??  You speak of privilege and being born into a situation that may put someone in a better situation financially but again, what are people supposed to do, give all their wealth to other people so make them feel "even" or something?  By the way, I was NOT born into a situation in which my family had generational wealth...quite the opposite, we were very poor...but no one in my family expected someone who was born into wealth should give us anything.

And as far as the people who founded this country, they sure did know what they were doing, if they didn't we wouldn't be where we are today.  Again, yes bad things happened but for that time it wasn't considered bad.  So your argument essentially is what a lot of people like you do, and that is try and apply today's societal norms to our history...that is impossible to do.  We should teach history and all the bad things about it (according to today's societal norms) so the bad parts of history don't repeat itself.  But we can't go back and change it.  There is nothing we could do now to make up for some of the bad stuff.  Can we continually do better...ABSOLUTELY...but we do that as a country...are we perfect, absolutely not, but holy crap, we are a great country and that is why so many people want to come here.

[ThreePointTakedown]

53 minutes ago, JimmyBT said:

So answer the question. Would Lavar burton have to admit his privilege?  Would/should he still get reparations ?  Or does he get reparations and then have to give it back?..

Can I ask, why would Lavar Burton have to do anything and who would hold him accountable to that? I commend him for taking that leap. Hearing that information must've been quite a shock. 

No. No one HAS to do anything. But refusing to even consider it says a lot. 

Yes, he possibly could. Some folks you wouldn't think have been effected by racism, have been effected by racism. That's why we ask the questions. 

Nope. No give back. 

[Offthemat]

Some of my family has been fighting illegal immigration since 1492.  

[mspart]

TPT has taken this discussion down a rabbit hole which is his aim anyway.   This topic was about the border and now we are talking about reparations.  

The fact of the matter is that Biden has all the authority he needs right now to do what he says he will do if the bill passes.   So what does he mean he needs new legislation?   https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/biden-promises-shut-border-authority-bipartisan-bill-rcna135980

President Joe Biden on Friday vowed to halt crossings at the border when it’s “overwhelmed” if Congress passes bipartisan immigration legislation giving him that authority.

This statement is very telling.   He won't close the border unless someone (who might that be?) determines that the border is overwhelmed.    Well it is overwhelmed right now.    The legislation passes and he says nope, not overwhelmed enough.   From the article here is his direct quote which is no different than the above.

“What’s been negotiated would — if passed into law — be the toughest and fairest set of reforms to secure the border we’ve ever had in our country,” Biden said Friday night. “It would give me, as President, a new emergency authority to shut down the border when it becomes overwhelmed. And if given that authority, I would use it the day I sign the bill into law.”

From this statement, I have doubt that he would take action with the new legislation because he has put the caveat on it.   But it will LOOK like the Ds are doing something hopefully enough so to save the election.    This is the most cynical thing he could be doing in my opinion.   This is a stupid thing and the Rs should not support because Biden has said in essence he won't close the border until a time he chooses based on it being overwhelmed.   More likely based on timing of the polls and election. 

mspart

[ThreePointTakedown]

26 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

LOL...once again you have no idea what in the hell you are talking about.  You have no idea what trauma I have had in my life nor how or when I addressed it so stop with your stupid b.s.  As far as the country and it's history, NO ONE has brushed anything under the rug or is ignoring it.  Second you once again have no idea who I am or who my family is or where we came from.  But point being, what the heck does it matter if my family was from Russia or Australia??  For clarity for you and your completely asinine assumptions, my family is from Norway and never had anything to do with slavery or what happened to the Native American's, Mexico, Latin America, etc.  But again, what is someone to do if their family history did have something to do with those horrible things???  Give something back for something they had no hand in??  Still don't know what it is that people like you want today's society to give back to make up for bad things in the past??  And how will that fix anything??  You speak of privilege and being born into a situation that may put someone in a better situation financially but again, what are people supposed to do, give all their wealth to other people so make them feel "even" or something?  By the way, I was NOT born into a situation in which my family had generational wealth...quite the opposite, we were very poor...but no one in my family expected someone who was born into wealth should give us anything.

And as far as the people who founded this country, they sure did know what they were doing, if they didn't we wouldn't be where we are today.  Again, yes bad things happened but for that time it wasn't considered bad.  So your argument essentially is what a lot of people like you do, and that is try and apply today's societal norms to our history...that is impossible to do.  We should teach history and all the bad things about it (according to today's societal norms) so the bad parts of history don't repeat itself.  But we can't go back and change it.  There is nothing we could do now to make up for some of the bad stuff.  Can we continually do better...ABSOLUTELY...but we do that as a country...are we perfect, absolutely not, but holy crap, we are a great country and that is why so many people want to come here.

Touched a nerve, huh? 

Have you asked me what my thoughts are on reparations? Not in this thread at least. Seems like you're responding to a question I never answered and are upset with it. Take a breath. Ask a question. Do you even want the answer or is your mind made up and unwavering? 

Reparations is an incredibly complicated issue. Firstly we must ask who to consider and why to consider them. Descendants of slaves and Native Americans for instance. Slaves(among others), following emancipation were not allowed to vote for 100 years, that would effect your ability to move up. Not having any or many people like you to represent your interests. Red lining in cities all over the country. With some digging you could put a value to what was possible and denied to them for no reason other then looks. The many massacres that happened in places all over america motivated by a group attaining a little bit of wealth and affluence and the people around them being racist and envious. Oh, and knowing with near certainty that they'd be able to get away with it. Which they did!

and for the last time, its not to even things out. Its to help provide a more equal floor(minimum starting point vs ceiling seemingly infinite landing point) with which people can start. Where they go after, for many, is up to them. This is predicated on public resources being divided equally to help everyone at the same level.

People were systematically held back for reasons they had no control of and would be illegal today. They were cruel then and yet not illegal. Those were the values of the time. Glad they have changed. Your argument to just leave things as they are considering what we know, is puzzling. What makes people hesitate to treat someone wrong if they are so inclined? It could be that its wrong in the eyes of society and that if caught the punishment will be equal to or greater than the benefit of the illicit act. 

Regardless of where your ancestors came from, they and you have benefited from the practices that kept other groups from gaining ground. Money that was diverted from schools and other programs to more affluent areas. Better access to schools, roads, public transportation, even grocery stores. Those are all benefits of not being a group that has been systematically oppressed. Do you have to be rich to have benefitted and have privilege? No. If you have a family member that took advantage of the GI bill at any point prior to 1956, they and through them, you benefitted from opportunities denied to millions of people because of color. 

[Bigbrog]

Holy crap...is that your MO...just barf out a bunch of emotional statements about what has happened in the past and that makes you feel like you made some sort of point.  Did those things happen...sure...did we as a country realize it was wrong and try and fix policies so it isn't that way any longer...absolutely.  People like you can scream out these emotional talking points over and over but never have a point or a fix.  The US, again not perfect by any means, but sure has done A LOT to fix the bad things it had engaged in and how it oppressed people in the past.  We cannot make up for what has happened in the past other than change policies for the better moving forward.  What policies are in place currently that is keeping some group from gaining ground?  What policies right now are in place that puts people at a disadvantage over others?  How would you provide a more equal floor for every single person in the US??  Give specifics

My opinion...the us will never be equal...but it is fair.   Opportunities are there for all people who are willing to work hard and take advantage of them.

[Lipdrag]

Whoa!!  TD3 has just raised the stakes exponentially on the reparations game!! Below I try to piece together the "logic":

- Blacks are owed reparations because we ended slavery only 160 years ago  - via the death of about 400,000 union soldiers and 400,000 more casualties (15 - 20% of the eligible male population)  - and subsequent social circumstances.  Note - descendants of blacks who owned slaves are still considered to be reparation worthy due to , you know, the thing.

- People from every other country are owed reparations because of . . . Americany stuff.  Nevermind that most of the world can trace directly any semblance of representative government they do enjoy to America interceding on their behalf.  

- The people from every other country are justified to take their reparations proactively by placing themselves right next to Americans without an invitation to do so. 

- These people from 100+ other countries, including African countries, are extracting their reparations often directly from Americans (often black ones) in big cities who declared themselves proponents of international reparations via sanctuary city declarations. 

- Now reparations demanders of the first part are a bit upset that reparations demanders of the second part are actually availing themselves of such sanctuary.  We even have reports of illegal aliens enjoying sanctuary in many inner cities very upset by the onslaught of new illegal aliens horning in on the gig.

 

[JimmyBT]

3 hours ago, Offthemat said:

Some of my family has been fighting illegal immigration since 1492.  

So it was legal when some of your family came here?  Or they just happened to immigrate here first ???

[JimmyBT]

3 hours ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Can I ask, why would Lavar Burton have to do anything and who would hold him accountable to that? I commend him for taking that leap. Hearing that information must've been quite a shock. 

No. No one HAS to do anything. But refusing to even consider it says a lot. 

Yes, he possibly could. Some folks you wouldn't think have been effected by racism, have been effected by racism. That's why we ask the questions. 

Nope. No give back. 

But what if the confederate solider in his blood had privilege?   

[ThreePointTakedown]

1 hour ago, Bigbrog said:

Holy crap...is that your MO...just barf out a bunch of emotional statements about what has happened in the past and that makes you feel like you made some sort of point.  Did those things happen...sure...did we as a country realize it was wrong and try and fix policies so it isn't that way any longer...absolutely.  People like you can scream out these emotional talking points over and over but never have a point or a fix.  The US, again not perfect by any means, but sure has done A LOT to fix the bad things it had engaged in and how it oppressed people in the past.  We cannot make up for what has happened in the past other than change policies for the better moving forward.  What policies are in place currently that is keeping some group from gaining ground?  What policies right now are in place that puts people at a disadvantage over others?  How would you provide a more equal floor for every single person in the US??  Give specifics

My opinion...the us will never be equal...but it is fair.   Opportunities are there for all people who are willing to work hard and take advantage of them.

'What policies are in place currently that is keeping some group from gaining ground?'

Funding for public education. Property taxes in poor areas aren't enough to meet the needs of the area. Areas that have been woefully underfunded since RED LINING! The money needed to bring schools up to a reasonable average, at this point, is too high. So we can raise taxes. You're not a fan. Take money from affluent areas to help less fortunate areas. You're not a fan. Or we can just have the government pony up more for those areas than others. You're not a fan, because that isn't fair. Seems like you're not a fan of paying for poor kids to get a better education. 

Health care policy. Paying a higher % of your salary to medical care would keep someone from saving or investing. Eliminate that cost and people would be able to move to a better job or take a risk to start a business. This one is across the board btw, all groups are hit with this one, some more then others but all are effected. 

'How would you provide a more equal floor for every single person in the US??' Tax uber rich and corporations that stole money from us during inflation. Cap their profits so they are more inclined to reinvest in R&D, higher wages and tax bonuses. Take the money swim in it like Scrooge McDuck then hand it out to struggling schools to replace lead pipes and moldy tile and crumbling walls and pay for teachers and books and equipment so that a minimum standard of education can be attained throughout the country. Universal pre-school and pre-k too. That'll also help working families. Throw a ton of money at that too. Like, a ton. Its expensive and needed. 

Something can't be fair if its also unequal. 

[JimmyBT]

3 hours ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Can I ask, why would Lavar Burton have to do anything and who would hold him accountable to that? I commend him for taking that leap. Hearing that information must've been quite a shock. 

No. No one HAS to do anything. But refusing to even consider it says a lot. 

Yes, he possibly could. Some folks you wouldn't think have been effected by racism, have been effected by racism. That's why we ask the questions. 

Nope. No give back. 

Youve admitted your privilege on here numerous times.  And told many on here that they have it too.  Since you were born with it wouldn’t Lavar have some of it from birth too? 

[ThreePointTakedown]

1 minute ago, JimmyBT said:

Youve admitted your privilege on here numerous times.  And told many on here that they have it too.  Since you were born with it wouldn’t Lavar have some of it from birth too? 

If you answered the questions I posed in my first response you, likely, wouldn't need to ask this follow up question. Take another swing at it. 

[JimmyBT]

4 minutes ago, JimmyBT said:

Youve admitted your privilege on here numerous times.  And told many on here that they have it too.  Since you were born with it wouldn’t Lavar have some of it from birth too? 

Who said he took a leap?  The same do gooders like you should be holding him accountable to it like you try to do with everyone else.  Correction: you “say” gooders but do nothing. 

Edited January 30 by JimmyBT