There are NINE Four Timers

[ionel]

23 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

Gray lost up a weight to the returning NCAA champion … as a true freshman and to the Syracuse assistant coach, recently passed Ed Carlin. No losses to anyone he would have seen at NCAAs.

Lots of guys wrestled up and moved around for duals during this era correct?  There were also many years when different weight class NCAA tournament vs dual season.

[Eagle26]

57 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

You know who else lost twice his freshman year? Kyle Dake, Logan Steiber, and Carter Starocci.

 

And Mark Branch won an NCAA title with a losing record (going into the tournament). For sure, early losses don’t always mean losses at NCAAs, but I think it would be statistically more likely for an undefeated wrestler to win than for a wrestler with losses to win it. So in a hypothetical, you would normally give the edge to the undefeated wrestler, unless there are extenuating circumstances (like there are here)

[Gantry]

3 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

 I’d go with Uetake, Hodge, McCready, and Rex Peery as the 4th….

 

On 12/11/2023 at 1:13 PM, Gantry said:

So there's my unscientific breakdown - Uetake, Hodge, McCready and rex Peery.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Gantry

[Wrestleknownothing]

12 minutes ago, Gantry said:

 

[Jason Bryant]

8 hours ago, ionel said:

Lots of guys wrestled up and moved around for duals during this era correct?  There were also many years when different weight class NCAA tournament vs dual season.

There was no 115 or 191 in duals. When Gray was wrestling, there were 8 weights for duals and 115 and 191 were tournament weights. Gray had to win the wrestle-off at the higher weight each week to earn the starting spot. Some tournaments they went to, they didn't have a 115 and he wrestled up. In the mid 1960s, there were 11 weights for a short time. 

There was definitely more bumping for duals back then. The practice has fallen off considerably in the last 20 years. 

[gimpeltf]

4 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

There was no 115 or 191 in duals. When Gray was wrestling, there were 8 weights for duals and 115 and 191 were tournament weights. Gray had to win the wrestle-off at the higher weight each week to earn the starting spot. Some tournaments they went to, they didn't have a 115 and he wrestled up. In the mid 1960s, there were 11 weights for a short time. 

There was definitely more bumping for duals back then. The practice has fallen off considerably in the last 20 years. 

I'm going to disagree with one thing here. We (Lehigh) wrestled 123-191 + Unl in duals.

My understanding is that the East generally wrestled this combo and the West 115-177 + Unl.

This must have differed school to school given JBs info- which would have included Lock Haven. I did notice in 1960 and 1962 we wrestled Okla and Colgate without either weight but all other duals that year had 191. 1958 didn't have 191 at all.

And then as said- at NCAAs 115-191 + Unl.

Definitely more bumping. Thad Turner wrestled anywhere from 167-Unl.

Edited December 15, 2023 by gimpeltf

[Jason Bryant]

I'm going to disagree with one thing here. We (Lehigh) wrestled 123-191 + Unl in duals.
My understanding is that the East generally wrestled this combo and the West 115-177 + Unl.
This must have differed school to school given JBs info- which would have included Lock Haven. I did notice in 1960 and 1962 we wrestled Okla and Colgate without either weight but all other duals that year had 191. 1958 didn't have 191 at all.
And then as said- at NCAAs 115-191 + Unl.
Definitely more bumping. Thad Turner wrestled anywhere from 167-Unl.

Thanks for the clarity there Gimp. As always, your knowledge is extremely appreciated.

[Scouts Honor]

On 12/11/2023 at 1:01 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Or at least there should be.

While we have all been warned ad nauseum, that past performance does not guarantee future results, you never hear future performance does not guarantee past results. Why is that? Clearly it is a conspiracy against wrestlers of an early age. Well, I am here to shatter that illusion at great personal risk to myself. Damn the torpedoes...

In the freshman eligible eras there were 19 wrestlers who went X, 1, 1, 1. Of those 19 only 5, or 26.3%, filled in the X the right way, with the freshman win. 

In the non-freshman eligible eras there were 16 wrestlers who went N/A, 1, 1, 1. So without question 4.2 of them would have won it as freshmen had they been eligible because math.

Since King Solomon don't live round here, which four are you picking?

[jackwebster]

On 12/12/2023 at 11:11 PM, SocraTease said:

But could any of these guys have beaten Milo of Croton?  Milo would have certainly won the feats of strength competition during  the upcoming "Festivus for the Rest of Us" celebrations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo_of_Croton

Old rebuttal, but here goes: Milo got beat by a tree. How is he gonna take out an opponent who can move and is sentient?

Edited December 16, 2023 by jackwebster

[gimpeltf]

11 hours ago, jackwebster said:

Old rebuttal, but here goes: Milo got beat by a tree. How is he gonna take out an opponent who can move and is sentient?

Maybe he's branching out?

[Iwrite]

My pick is Lowell Lange, who won three NCAA titles for tiny Cornell College in Iowa. As a high school senior at West Waterloo (Iowa), he won the AAU national freesstyle title in 1946, at 135 pounds. In 1947, he won the 136-pound NCAA title as a pure freshman. He missed the 1948 season with injuries from a car accident but won his second title in 1949 by defeating the 1948 NCAA champion in the finals. According to Lange's biography at the National Wrestling Hall of Fame, "he swept through the 1949 collegiate tournament without surrending a single point, perhaps the only wrestler to do since scoring rules were adopted." His overall record, including three freestyle national titles, was 160-1. My second choice is Dan Hodge and my third pick is Gray Simons. -- Mike Chapman, creator of WIN and the Dan Hodge Trophy.

[ionel]

30 minutes ago, Iwrite said:

My pick is Lowell Lange, who won three NCAA titles for tiny Cornell College in Iowa. As a high school senior at West Waterloo (Iowa), he won the AAU national freesstyle title in 1946, at 135 pounds. In 1947, he won the 136-pound NCAA title as a pure freshman. He missed the 1948 season with injuries from a car accident but won his second title in 1949 by defeating the 1948 NCAA champion in the finals. According to Lange's biography at the National Wrestling Hall of Fame, "he swept through the 1949 collegiate tournament without surrending a single point, perhaps the only wrestler to do since scoring rules were adopted." His overall record, including three freestyle national titles, was 160-1. My second choice is Dan Hodge and my third pick is Gray Simons. -- Mike Chapman, creator of WIN and the Dan Hodge Trophy.

But so he only won twice like Gable ?

[Jason Bryant]

But so he only won twice like Gable ?

No, Lange won during the one year freshmen were eligible post WWII in 1947 - he won three. The accident kept him from potentially getting that fourth.

[Wrestleknownothing]

27 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

No, Lange won during the one year freshmen were eligible post WWII in 1947 - he won three. The accident kept him from potentially getting that fourth.

Another amazing thing about Lange is he did it at 18 when he was wrestling against some guys in their mid 20's due to GI's returning from the war.

[Iwrite]

ionel -- my error in not including the 1950 season when Lange won his third NCAA title. Thanks to Jason B. for cleaning that up, and to Wrestlingknownothing for that important addition.