At-Large Qualifying Change

[jdalu75]

My apologies if this has already been covered someplace else, but I haven't seen it.  The NCAA has recently modified the at-large process of qualifying for the NCAA tournament.  In addition to needing at least two of the existing six criteria to be considered for an at-large berth, wrestlers must participate in at least two matches at their conference tournaments.

The NCAA has already cracked down on the "arranged" injury defaults by requiring that real wrestling take place; now a wrestler must do that twice in the qualifiers in order to be eligible for at-large consideration.

The existing six criteria remain unchanged; wrestlers need at least two:

● .700 Win %
● Top 33 RPI
● Top 33 CR
● .700 winning percentage against all competition
● One win against a wrestler receiving an earned position (pre-allocated)
● Qualifying event placement one below number of pre-allocated spots

I've been thinking about whether this makes it easier or harder to grab an at-large position.  Maybe Seton Hall Pirate will weigh in with his opinion.  If injured wrestlers who have earned pre-allocated spots don't enter their conference tournaments, those spots will be freed up and so there will be more at-large positions available.  But there will be more healthy wrestlers competing for the at-large spots, so it may balance out.

 

[bnwtwg]

I like the idea but concerned it will punish the legit injuries. I would like to see a last chance tourney the weekend between conference and NCAAs. If you MFF out of conference even if you make B1G finals then you must go to last chance. Sixteen man bracket based off RPI. Full wrestlebacks and top three get bids.

[1032004]

22 hours ago, jdalu75 said:

My apologies if this has already been covered someplace else, but I haven't seen it.  The NCAA has recently modified the at-large process of qualifying for the NCAA tournament.  In addition to needing at least two of the existing six criteria to be considered for an at-large berth, wrestlers must participate in at least two matches at their conference tournaments.

The NCAA has already cracked down on the "arranged" injury defaults by requiring that real wrestling take place; now a wrestler must do that twice in the qualifiers in order to be eligible for at-large consideration.

The existing six criteria remain unchanged; wrestlers need at least two:

● .700 Win %
● Top 33 RPI
● Top 33 CR
● .700 winning percentage against all competition
● One win against a wrestler receiving an earned position (pre-allocated)
● Qualifying event placement one below number of pre-allocated spots

I've been thinking about whether this makes it easier or harder to grab an at-large position.  Maybe Seton Hall Pirate will weigh in with his opinion.  If injured wrestlers who have earned pre-allocated spots don't enter their conference tournaments, those spots will be freed up and so there will be more at-large positions available.  But there will be more healthy wrestlers competing for the at-large spots, so it may balance out.

 

What is the rule “requiring that real wrestling take place”?

[Idaho]

Another interesting addition, or at least I think it is... is "Qualifying event placement one below number of pre-allocated spots."  If I read this correctly, if you have 3 allocated spots at a weight, you would have to finish 4th  (one spot below allocation).  I think this runs in conjunction with having to wrestle at least two matches. Before you could wrestle one - or step on the mat for one then injury default out to 8th place and still get an at-large even though you only had 4 at that weight. Now you would have to wrestle at least two matches and finish one spot below allocation.  

My question is similar to @1032004 - Does stepping on the mat and injury defaulting after 2 seconds constitute a real match? 

[Idaho]

41 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

I like the idea but concerned it will punish the legit injuries. I would like to see a last chance tourney the weekend between conference and NCAAs. If you MFF out of conference even if you make B1G finals then you must go to last chance. Sixteen man bracket based off RPI. Full wrestlebacks and top three get bids.

Interesting idea....I would add (and maybe. you inferred this) that there are no at-large, that the last chance determines the at-large selections - like you said top 3 are in.   You have to have been entered in your conference tournament first. Personally, I would love to see this tournament.... but not on FLO. 

 

[bnwtwg]

57 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

What is the rule “requiring that real wrestling take place”?

My idea takes care of that. Too injured to wrestle last chance then you are too injured for NCAAs. Thems the breaks.

[bnwtwg]

14 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Interesting idea....I would add (and maybe. you inferred this) that there are no at-large, that the last chance determines the at-large selections - like you said top 3 are in.   You have to have been entered in your conference tournament first. Personally, I would love to see this tournament.... but not on FLO. 

 

This system would actually allocate more conference spots by giving 30 spots then three at-large bids up for grabs at last chance. 

[jchapman]

3 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

My idea takes care of that. Too injured to wrestle last chance then you are too injured for NCAAs. Thems the breaks.

...unless in a concussion protocol and the extra week is enough to clear them

[bnwtwg]

3 hours ago, jchapman said:

...unless in a concussion protocol and the extra week is enough to clear them

Thems the breaks. There is no perfect solution but at least this would remove the MFF will he/won't he. 

[1032004]

10 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Thems the breaks. There is no perfect solution but at least this would remove the MFF will he/won't he. 

I don’t see a problem with having some at large bids.

But I think a tournament to determine the last spot or 2 or 3 would be amazing

[bnwtwg]

3 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I don’t see a problem with having some at large bids.

But I think a tournament to determine the last spot or 2 or 3 would be amazing

All non-B1G conferences would love to have more pre-allocated spots via removal of at-large. It’s better for their brands and gives the little guy more shine. 

[ionel]

11 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

All non-B1G conferences would love to have more pre-allocated spots via removal of at-large. It’s better for their brands and gives the little guy more shine. 

Really ... have you checked the rankings lately? 

[ugarles]

7 hours ago, Idaho said:

Another interesting addition, or at least I think it is... is "Qualifying event placement one below number of pre-allocated spots." 

This isn't new, and I think you're misreading it. You don't have to finish on the bubble to be in the at-large pool. To get considered you only need to fulfill any two of the six listed criteria.

So, for example, if you head into the conference tournament ranked high in CR and RPI with a straospheric win% but go 0-2 at the tournament, you're still in the mix. Likewise, if you didn't have much of a season but caught a heater in the conference tournament, knocking off a wrestler who earned a pre-allocated spot and finishing on the bubble, you have added yourself to the mix.

There are a separate (though overlapping) set of criteria for choosing the at-large wrestlers from the at large pool.

Edited December 7, 2023 by ugarles

[bnwtwg]

5 minutes ago, ionel said:

Really ... have you checked the rankings lately? 

That’s why I specifically chose RPI as the selection criteria of the 16 person last chance tourney. Because B1G tends to beat up on itself, it artificially dampens those in the middle of the pack most years at most weight classes.

[ionel]

16 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

That’s why I specifically chose RPI as the selection criteria of the 16 person last chance tourney. Because B1G tends to beat up on itself, it artificially dampens those in the middle of the pack most years at most weight classes.

And so do other conferences.

 

[jdalu75]

8 hours ago, 1032004 said:

What is the rule “requiring that real wrestling take place”?

It was in the Report of the NCAA Division I Wrestling Committee Meeting, April 12-13, 2022.

Injury default. Matches that are declared injury default with no wrestling occurring will not be considered for championship selections and seeding.

 

 

[1032004]

1 minute ago, jdalu75 said:

It was in the Report of the NCAA Division I Wrestling Committee Meeting, April 12-13, 2022.

Injury default. Matches that are declared injury default with no wrestling occurring will not be considered for championship selections and seeding.

 

 

Thanks.  I remember forgetting something about that.  Seems kinda silly though, would 5 seconds constitute “actual wrestling”?

[Idaho]

1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

All non-B1G conferences would love to have more pre-allocated spots via removal of at-large. It’s better for their brands and gives the little guy more shine. 

Oh, I failed to mention that a last chance tourney would not have the B1G. It will be in tiny font on page 674, subset A subsub set 13. 

[Idaho]

1 hour ago, ugarles said:

This isn't new, and I think you're misreading it. You don't have to finish on the bubble to be in the at-large pool. To get considered you only need to fulfill any two of the six listed criteria.

So, for example, if you head into the conference tournament ranked high in CR and RPI with a straospheric win% but go 0-2 at the tournament, you're still in the mix. Likewise, if you didn't have much of a season but caught a heater in the conference tournament, knocking off a wrestler who earned a pre-allocated spot and finishing on the bubble, you have added yourself to the mix.

There are a separate (though overlapping) set of criteria for choosing the at-large wrestlers from the at large pool.

ahhh... good catch. Missed that part. 

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, ionel said:

And so do other conferences.

 

The delta of talent at other conferences tends to sort itself out on the mat throughout the season. This would mathematically open more spots for individuals outside of B1G which grows opportunities for our sport from a team growth model which theoretically increases fanbase and viewership. Diversity = Inclusion essentially.

33 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Oh, I failed to mention that a last chance tourney would not have the B1G. It will be in tiny font on page 674, subset A subsub set 13. 

I mean, I’m trying my darndest here! While the B1G is the premiere conference, this model would intentionally devalue its athletes and only a handful per weight would qualify for this hypothetical last chance. More SIU-E and Kent State 3rd place at conference, less Michigan 9th at B1Gs.

[jdalu75]

2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

 would 5 seconds constitute “actual wrestling”?

It's up to the powers that be.  That's not us.

 

[ugarles]

18 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Thanks.  I remember forgetting something about that.  Seems kinda silly though, would 5 seconds constitute “actual wrestling”?

I think the answer here is "the matches are all on video." If a guy with a known injury steps on the mat and suddenly we're watching the World Cup and someone comes out with cold spray but can't "treat the injury," that won't count. If the ref blows the whistle and the guys collide like a pair of bighorn sheep and one of them can't remember what day of the week it is, that will count.

[1032004]

9 minutes ago, ugarles said:

I think the answer here is "the matches are all on video." If a guy with a known injury steps on the mat and suddenly we're watching the World Cup and someone comes out with cold spray but can't "treat the injury," that won't count. If the ref blows the whistle and the guys collide like a pair of bighorn sheep and one of them can't remember what day of the week it is, that will count.

Still not sure if I like this, I feel like this will encourage guys with non-serious injuries to do some “actual wrestling” when they wouldn’t have otherwise.

I didn’t think there was a problem with the 1 second injury defaults to begin with since they counted as a loss.  The issue seemed to be when coaches would do it in extra matches (are any schools still even doing extra matches?) or against a teammate which they already corrected by making matches against teammates not count.

[ugarles]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Still not sure if I like this, I feel like this will encourage guys with non-serious injuries to do some “actual wrestling” when they wouldn’t have otherwise.

I didn’t think there was a problem with the 1 second injury defaults to begin with since they counted as a loss.  The issue seemed to be when coaches would do it in extra matches (are any schools still even doing extra matches?) or against a teammate which they already corrected by making matches against teammates not count.

I think the NCAA's ultimate decision is "if you aren't well enough to wrestle at the conference tournament we aren't holding a place for you at natty."

[ionel]

7 minutes ago, ugarles said:

I think the NCAA's ultimate decision is "if you aren't well enough to wrestle at the conference tournament we aren't holding a place for you at natty."

But what if you are still well enough to be drilling downstairs?