Upset Thread

[Gus]

14 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Okay so let's take a step back for a second because everyone seems to consistently miss the point.

There are limited opportunities due to lack of weight classes. If you give more weight classes then naturally the participant pool will grow. When your options are

1) Bulk up as much as possible to get up to 240-250 and lose what made you special in the first place

2) Cut harder than anyone else on the team to shrink down to 197 and lose what made you special in the first place

3) Do neither and enjoy college but give up wrestling as the cost

Then you are only presented with miserable choices. Everyone else gets a weight class for their body why can't the people taller than 5'7 who hit the gym?

What if we left the first 7 weight classes alone and then adjusted 184 to 190 and 197 to 214. That matches up with 86kg and 97kg and doesn't mess with the lower weights where there are more participants. 

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[nhs67]

8 minutes ago, Gus said:

What if we left the first 7 weight classes alone and then adjusted 184 to 190 and 197 to 214. That matches up with 86kg and 97kg and doesn't mess with the lower weights where there are more participants. 

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I believe one of our biggest reasons we struggle at 65 KG internationally, with our best wrestlers, is that the Zains and Johnny D's end up going 149lbs and have to do a lot to get back to 65 KG (143lbs).  It can't really be denied that Johnny D was more successful for us when he was making 141lbs than he was when he went 149lbs can it?

[Gus]

2 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

I believe one of our biggest reasons we struggle at 65 KG internationally, with our best wrestlers, is that the Zains and Johnny D's end up going 149lbs and have to do a lot to get back to 65 KG (143lbs).  It can't really be denied that Johnny D was more successful for us when he was making 141lbs than he was when he went 149lbs can it?

That is a possibility. Could also just be that 65kg is one of the deepest weight classes internationally and we have not had a guy break through. I thought I read that Yianna walked around at 165-170 so the pull to 143 was probably tough. He may have just outgrown that weight class like Zain. Do you think that if the college weight was 143/144 and then the next weight was like 154 that Yianni and Zain would have not had the same issues that they had?

[nhs67]

8 minutes ago, Gus said:

That is a possibility. Could also just be that 65kg is one of the deepest weight classes internationally and we have not had a guy break through. I thought I read that Yianna walked around at 165-170 so the pull to 143 was probably tough. He may have just outgrown that weight class like Zain. Do you think that if the college weight was 143/144 and then the next weight was like 154 that Yianni and Zain would have not had the same issues that they had?

I think that they would have developed a lifestyle that revolved around that weight, rather than one that was in-between two weights.

James Green, our GOAT 70 KG guy wrestled 157lbs and had said himself he walked around at around 160lbs in-season.  Him going ~154.3lbs wasn't much of a pull, considering.  We saw what happened when he gave 74 KG and 65 KG a go and it was not with success.

Were we to form our weight classes to fit the next level up, we would perform better long-term.

[MPhillips]

39 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Were we to form our weight classes to fit the next level up, we would perform better long-term.

The fact that you have to keep explaining this over and over to, "wrestling folks" must be maddening...

[Gus]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

I think that they would have developed a lifestyle that revolved around that weight, rather than one that was in-between two weights.

James Green, our GOAT 70 KG guy wrestled 157lbs and had said himself he walked around at around 160lbs in-season.  Him going ~154.3lbs wasn't much of a pull, considering.  We saw what happened when he gave 74 KG and 65 KG a go and it was not with success.

Were we to form our weight classes to fit the next level up, we would perform better long-term.

 

58 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

The fact that you have to keep explaining this over and over to, "wrestling folks" must be maddening...

I am just not convinced wrestling the college season at 143 vs 141/149 would have this astronomical advantage that you all are saying it would. Zain grew into a nice sized 70kg wrestler (154lb). As he matured, 143lbs just was not the right size for him. James Green walked around at 160 (according to nhs) so he was too small to be a true 74kg (163 lbs) and too big to be a 65kg (143lbs) based on how lean he was. We have had great success at 97kg without have a college weight class at 214lbs. Your doctrine is being developed based on a few tweeners for weight classes. Wrestling the college season at 141 should allow for a young man that is maturing to grow into 143 lbs for senior level competition. 

I also admit that I would have no problem with aligning the weight classes for NCAA to fit the international standards better but it is true that there are more wrestlers in those middle weights than the upper weights. I do not think that college wrestling needs three weight classes above 200lbs.

[MPhillips]

11 minutes ago, Gus said:

I also admit that I would have no problem with aligning the weight classes for NCAA to fit the international standards better

So why the debate... Aligning the weight classes is the point, is it not?

[ionel]

24 minutes ago, Gus said:

 

I also admit that I would have no problem with aligning the weight classes for NCAA to fit the international standards better 

But how do you do that?  Kids add weight and muscle at different rates, some even don't after college.  Do you expect 5%, 10% ... ?

[Gus]

10 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

So why the debate... Aligning the weight classes is the point, is it not?

For one, as stated, I don't think that college wrestling needs three weight classes above 200lbs. The upper weights in high school are generally the weakest and least filled weight classes. 

[Gus]

6 minutes ago, ionel said:

But how do you do that?  Kids add weight and muscle at different rates, some even don't after college.  Do you expect 5%, 10% ... ?

That is a good question. If we are all about our wrestlers growing and not pulling a ton of weight then having college weight classes slightly below international standards would be the way to go. Where we are getting into some strange scenarios is that we have 24/25 year old athletes in college right now.

[1032004]

3 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Okay so let's take a step back for a second because everyone seems to consistently miss the point.

There are limited opportunities due to lack of weight classes. If you give more weight classes then naturally the participant pool will grow. When your options are

1) Bulk up as much as possible to get up to 240-250 and lose what made you special in the first place

2) Cut harder than anyone else on the team to shrink down to 197 and lose what made you special in the first place

3) Do neither and enjoy college but give up wrestling as the cost

Then you are only presented with miserable choices. Everyone else gets a weight class for their body why can't the people taller than 5'7 who hit the gym?

This is not true.  220 in high school is often forfeited too, as @Gus says below

20 minutes ago, Gus said:

For one, as stated, I don't think that college wrestling needs three weight classes above 200lbs. The upper weights in high school are generally the weakest and least filled weight classes. 

 

[1032004]

3 hours ago, Gus said:

What if we left the first 7 weight classes alone and then adjusted 184 to 190 and 197 to 214. That matches up with 86kg and 97kg and doesn't mess with the lower weights where there are more participants. 

125

133

141

149

157

165

174

190

214

285

I like this idea

[1032004]

4 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I believe one of our biggest reasons we struggle at 65 KG internationally, with our best wrestlers, is that the Zains and Johnny D's end up going 149lbs and have to do a lot to get back to 65 KG (143lbs).  It can't really be denied that Johnny D was more successful for us when he was making 141lbs than he was when he went 149lbs can it?

Doesn’t this more maybe just mean Yianni outgrew 65kg as opposed to wrestling 149 in college having anything to do with it?

We’ve also seen guys like Micic make major cuts from where they wrestled in college and have success, so I don’t think having 141/149 as the college weights really has anything to do with our lack of success at 65

[bnwtwg]

5 hours ago, 1032004 said:

This is not true.  220 in high school is often forfeited too, as @Gus says below

 

We are not talking about high school. We are talking about high level wrestling at the collegiate level.

103 or whatever it is nowadays is also often forfeited. Don't lose the forest for the trees.

[1032004]

8 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Okay so let's take a step back for a second because everyone seems to consistently miss the point.

There are limited opportunities due to lack of weight classes. If you give more weight classes then naturally the participant pool will grow. When your options are

1) Bulk up as much as possible to get up to 240-250 and lose what made you special in the first place

2) Cut harder than anyone else on the team to shrink down to 197 and lose what made you special in the first place

3) Do neither and enjoy college but give up wrestling as the cost

Then you are only presented with miserable choices. Everyone else gets a weight class for their body why can't the people taller than 5'7 who hit the gym?

Option 4: Wrestle heavyweight weighing ~230-235 and do just fine as many do.   (If they walked around at 220 then 197 shouldn’t be a bad cut)

Can you name some examples of guys who had AA potential but did not wrestle in college because there isn’t a weight class between 197 and 285?

[bnwtwg]

22 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Option 4: Wrestle heavyweight weighing ~230-235 and do just fine as many do.   (If they walked around at 220 then 197 shouldn’t be a bad cut)

Can you name some examples of guys who had AA potential but did not wrestle in college because there isn’t a weight class between 197 and 285?

Can you name some examples of guys who didn't wrestle but had AA potential because they didn't want to make an 88 pound decision?

[bnwtwg]

4 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Can you name some examples of guys who didn't wrestle but had AA potential because they didn't want to make an 88 pound decision?

People bitch about 8 pounds being too much. Do the same thing they tell bigger guys - hit the gym and shut up.

[1032004]

31 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Can you name some examples of guys who didn't wrestle but had AA potential because they didn't want to make an 88 pound decision?

Sorry but this is silly IMO.  

1) A lot of the top heavyweights are “only” about 250, so a guy weighing even 198 is rarely giving up more than 50 pounds.

2) A guy weighing 198 is a 197.  Basically the only people who have a decision to make are those walking around at about 225-230.  Maybe 215-220 too but to your earlier post that would not be “the hardest cut on the team.”  But going back to point 1 they’re rarely going to be giving up more than about 25 pounds.

3.  There have been numerous numerous examples of guys bumping from 197 to heavyweight and doing even better than they did at 197.  This is evidence we don’t need an additional upperweight.  I’m on board with @Gus’s suggestion to shift both 184 and 197 upwards though.

Edited 12 hours ago by 1032004

[bnwtwg]

32 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Sorry but this is silly IMO.  

1) A lot of the top heavyweights are “only” about 250, so a guy weighing even 198 is rarely giving up more than 50 pounds.

2) A guy weighing 198 is a 197.  Basically the only people who have a decision to make are those walking around at about 225-230.  Maybe 215-220 too but to your earlier post that would not be “the hardest cut on the team.”  But going back to point 1 they’re rarely going to be giving up more than about 25 pounds.

3.  There have been numerous numerous examples of guys bumping from 197 to heavyweight and doing even better than they did at 197.  This is evidence we don’t need an additional upperweight.  I’m on board with @Gus’s suggestion to shift both 184 and 197 upwards though.

If you are asking larger athletes to give up a disparity of weight then why can you not do the same if smaller athletes?

Why, other than tradition, is there such pushback against matching works championship weights?

And again, if you give more opportunities then more athletes will follow. It's like some of you have never created a new line of business because you want to waste time figuring out if you can marginally increase a fully saturated market and it shows.

[nhs67]

13 hours ago, Gus said:

 

I am just not convinced wrestling the college season at 143 vs 141/149 would have this astronomical advantage that you all are saying it would. Zain grew into a nice sized 70kg wrestler (154lb). As he matured, 143lbs just was not the right size for him. James Green walked around at 160 (according to nhs) so he was too small to be a true 74kg (163 lbs) and too big to be a 65kg (143lbs) based on how lean he was. We have had great success at 97kg without have a college weight class at 214lbs. Your doctrine is being developed based on a few tweeners for weight classes. Wrestling the college season at 141 should allow for a young man that is maturing to grow into 143 lbs for senior level competition. 

I also admit that I would have no problem with aligning the weight classes for NCAA to fit the international standards better but it is true that there are more wrestlers in those middle weights than the upper weights. I do not think that college wrestling needs three weight classes above 200lbs.

James Green said he was walking around at 160 in an interview after he made his 2nd comeback (when he thought the was going 74 KG to start).  He couldn't put weight on nor keep it up.  It was in a Flo interview (I believe?).

[nhs67]

6 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Sorry but this is silly IMO.  

1) A lot of the top heavyweights are “only” about 250, so a guy weighing even 198 is rarely giving up more than 50 pounds.

2) A guy weighing 198 is a 197.  Basically the only people who have a decision to make are those walking around at about 225-230.  Maybe 215-220 too but to your earlier post that would not be “the hardest cut on the team.”  But going back to point 1 they’re rarely going to be giving up more than about 25 pounds.

3.  There have been numerous numerous examples of guys bumping from 197 to heavyweight and doing even better than they did at 197.  This is evidence we don’t need an additional upperweight.  I’m on board with @Gus’s suggestion to shift both 184 and 197 upwards though.

Cassar was 232 night of NCAAs, Snyder was 228 night of NCAAs.  Neither looked much bigger compared to the year prior when they were at 197lbs.  A bit more poofy, but that's just water weight.

I am curious what Trumble is at right now.  His height would make me think in the 240 area.

[nhs67]

13 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I like this idea

If you lined up with the high school weights for the top half, you're 157, 165, 175, 190, 215, 285...

[Gus]

3 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

If you lined up with the high school weights for the top half, you're 157, 165, 175, 190, 215, 285...

I’d go for that 

[1032004]

6 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

If you are asking larger athletes to give up a disparity of weight then why can you not do the same if smaller athletes?

Why, other than tradition, is there such pushback against matching works championship weights?

And again, if you give more opportunities then more athletes will follow. It's like some of you have never created a new line of business because you want to waste time figuring out if you can marginally increase a fully saturated market and it shows.

A new product doesn’t automatically create new buyers, there has to be a demand for it.  Just like creating a new weight class won’t automatically result in more participants.  The two scenarios aren’t comparable anyway unless you’re talking about adding weights in total.  As I said earlier, if anything you probably lose participants by losing a middle weight.   Forget the official numbers but I think they’ve been posted previously showing that depth charts are pretty shallow at 197.  I could certainly see guys who are 2nd string at 141/149 now become third string and then don’t think they’ll see much action so they quit.

What’s your opinion on simply increasing 184 and 197?  Seems like that would solve both issues of shrinking the gap to heavyweight as well as better aligning with the Olympic weights.

[nhs67]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

A new product doesn’t automatically create new buyers, there has to be a demand for it.  Just like creating a new weight class won’t automatically result in more participants.  The two scenarios aren’t comparable anyway unless you’re talking about adding weights in total.  As I said earlier, if anything you probably lose participants by losing a middle weight.   Forget the official numbers but I think they’ve been posted previously showing that depth charts are pretty shallow at 197.  I could certainly see guys who are 2nd string at 141/149 now become third string and then don’t think they’ll see much action so they quit.

What’s your opinion on simply increasing 184 and 197?  Seems like that would solve both issues of shrinking the gap to heavyweight as well as better aligning with the Olympic weights.

About 12 of us in this thread...

Surely that is enough.