Top p4p US men's freestylers

[peanut]

My opinion...

1. Snyder- 1x Olympic champ, 3x world champ (8x world-level medalist)
2. DT- 1x Olympic champ, 2x world champ (4x world-level medalist)
3. Dake- 4x world champ (5x world-level medalist)
4. Gable- 1x Olympic champ
5. Cox- 2x world champ (6x medalist)
6. Zain- 1x medalist
7. Vito- I'm just impressed ok?
8. Chance- Beat the returning gold medalist
9. Nick Lee- Beat the returning silver medalist
10. Richards- Beat the returning silver medalist

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

11 minutes ago, peanut said:

My opinion...

1. Snyder- 1x Olympic champ, 3x world champ (8x world-level medalist)
2. DT- 1x Olympic champ, 2x world champ (4x world-level medalist)
3. Dake- 4x world champ (5x world-level medalist)
4. Gable- 1x Olympic champ
5. Cox- 2x world champ (6x medalist)
6. Zain- 1x medalist
7. Vito- I'm just impressed ok?
8. Chance- Beat the returning gold medalist
9. Nick Lee- Beat the returning silver medalist
10. Richards- Beat the returning silver medalist

 

I would be tempted to swap Dake and Taylor. I am on the fence whether an Olympic gold is a bigger deal than a world gold.

[Theo Brixton]

What's the criteria? 

Top 4 by the eye test:

1. Taylor

2. Steveson

3. Dake

4. Snyder

[nhs67]

I am a huge fan of all that is USAWrestling and their success.

Despite my hating on Blue Dragons, I was fully in support of Downey.  It was disappointing that he lost to a guy that Amine beat the very next round.  That tells me that Amine > Downey five years ago fwiw (that was 174lb Amine, too).

This all said, ignoring actual results seems silly.  I get that JB won 45 times and only lost twice to Dake and once to Taylor, however they hold the most recent win(s).  This said, Dake is also 452W - 1L against Taylor and the loss to Taylor was from either 8th grade or 9th grade.

It doesn't make sense to give that a proportionate amount of weight.  Even though Dake does not have the Olympic gold, he beat JB in the process as well as is 452W - 1L against Taylor (despite many believing Taylor should have won every match).

[d3grappler]

Some might disagree, but to me the original post is just ranking the world team. Burroughs is still on this list for sure and Yianni & Gilman should probably still be on it as well until some of these other guys medal at worlds.

[bnwtwg]

47 minutes ago, d3grappler said:

Some might disagree, but to me the original post is just ranking the world team. Burroughs is still on this list for sure and Yianni & Gilman should probably still be on it as well until some of these other guys medal at worlds.

I agree with all of the above except the inclusion of Yianni. 65 has always been a crapshoot domestically and the p4p rankings should reflect as much.

[bnwtwg]

Tier 1: The best of the best

1) Snyder - if not for the top p4p in the world, Snyder would be chasing down the likes of Yodanov, Fadzaev, Bloglazov, Satiev, and possibly even Medved. I believe Snyder is the #2 p4p in the world.

2) Dake - did you know that he still beats Taylor when they rarely go live?

3) Taylor - One blemish at a diminished '21 worlds that I won't hold against him.

Tier 2: Because of previous time away, current WWE obligations, and until a repeat of Tokyo is completed I cannot be convinced otherwise

4) Steveson

Tier 3: Well, hmm, what do we do about this guy because it's going to be really inconsistent with a certain GOAT in the tier below...

5) Cox

Tier 4: Significant drop from the above until proven otherwise

6) Retherford - finally put together a good tourney last year. Was it lightning in a bottle that is propping him up at this current ranking?

7) Marstellar - to be the man you gotta beat the man. I cannot put him below JB but anything less than a finals appearance is going to drop you real hard in the p4p rankings (note: p4p is not the same as 1:1 matchups)

8 ) Richards - to be the man you gotta beat the man

9) Burroughs - pain putting this name this far down. Reigning world champion that could very well have repeated if he retained his spot. I really think he is no lower than 6 but the WTT results say otherwise. Pain.

10) Gilman - three time medalist (four if you want to count '21 Oslo where no one at 57 showed up) that was just knocked off the top of the mountain. Similar sentiment as JB but obviously to a much, much less degree

11) Zahid - proven international results with domestic barriers

12) Vito - I'm all in but that's my heart not my mind doing the talking. Results required.

Tier 5: Getting into the mud

13) Fix - Still can't believe he got rocked so bad by Nashon. Strongly looking like a regression and a change of scenery is necessary. And maybe a swig of ol' dad's water bottle.

14) Suriano - I think Suriano is still better than our 65 group and he has international results to back it up.

15) N. Lee - Ehh 65. And he got torqued by Musukaev like he just kicked his dog.

16) Yianni - Yep. Still 65. But he broke the drought!

17) Parris - Has a good opportunity to jump up the p4p ladder with good results Thursday & Friday. I hope he takes advantage because his opportunities are going to be limited.

18) Hendrickson - He's that good, he's just in a domestically stacked weight. I believe he would bring home hardware right now if he started doing the senior circuit. He's just behind a medal contender who's behind the best in the world. It's a JB/Dake/Taylor/Howe problem at 125.

19) Gwiz - Father Time is undefeated and that's a shame. He might still be able to beat Hendrickson but I believe it would only be the first time and the results would swing the other way going forward.

20) Kerk - Don't sleep on the big boring tree if he ever puts it together. Big IF. Did I mention 125 is our deepest weight?

Edited July 11, 2023 by bnwtwg
.

[bnwtwg]

And I forgot Aaron Brooks. Slot him in at 12 below Zahid and above Vito. It's my p4p and I can do what I want. Just be glad I didn't include Spencer Lee.

[Ragu]

Give me Gable #1

[nhs67]

1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

And I forgot Aaron Brooks. Slot him in at 12 below Zahid and above Vito. It's my p4p and I can do what I want. Just be glad I didn't include Spencer Lee.

You put Aaron Brooks behind Zahid, whom he just beat at a lower weight?

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

You put Aaron Brooks behind Zahid, whom he just beat at a lower weight?

 

2 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

It's my p4p and I can do what I want. Just be glad I didn't include Spencer Lee.

If Brooks doesn't like my p4p then he can go up to 92kg and prove me wrong. Don't make me pull this car over because now I'm seriously considering adding Spencer Lee.

[nhs67]

44 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

 

If Brooks doesn't like my p4p then he can go up to 92kg and prove me wrong. Don't make me pull this car over because now I'm seriously considering adding Spencer Lee.

I am okay if you add Spencer Lee...

For clarity...

[alex1fly]

3 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Tier 1: The best of the best

1) Snyder - if not for the top p4p in the world, Snyder would be chasing down the likes of Yodanov, Fadzaev, Bloglazov, Satiev, and possibly even Medved. I believe Snyder is the #2 p4p in the world.

2) Dake - did you know that he still beats Taylor when they rarely go live?

3) Taylor - One blemish at a diminished '21 worlds that I won't hold against him.

Tier 2: Because of previous time away, current WWE obligations, and until a repeat of Tokyo is completed I cannot be convinced otherwise

4) Steveson

Tier 3: Well, hmm, what do we do about this guy because it's going to be really inconsistent with a certain GOAT in the tier below...

5) Cox

Tier 4: Significant drop from the above until proven otherwise

6) Retherford - finally put together a good tourney last year. Was it lightning in a bottle that is propping him up at this current ranking?

7) Marstellar - to be the man you gotta beat the man. I cannot put him below JB but anything less than a finals appearance is going to drop you real hard in the p4p rankings (note: p4p is not the same as 1:1 matchups)

8 ) Richards - to be the man you gotta beat the man

9) Burroughs - pain putting this name this far down. Reigning world champion that could very well have repeated if he retained his spot. I really think he is no lower than 6 but the WTT results say otherwise. Pain.

10) Gilman - three time medalist (four if you want to count '21 Oslo where no one at 57 showed up) that was just knocked off the top of the mountain. Similar sentiment as JB but obviously to a much, much less degree

11) Zahid - proven international results with domestic barriers

12) Vito - I'm all in but that's my heart not my mind doing the talking. Results required.

Tier 5: Getting into the mud

13) Fix - Still can't believe he got rocked so bad by Nashon. Strongly looking like a regression and a change of scenery is necessary. And maybe a swig of ol' dad's water bottle.

14) Suriano - I think Suriano is still better than our 65 group and he has international results to back it up.

15) N. Lee - Ehh 65. And he got torqued by Musukaev like he just kicked his dog.

16) Yianni - Yep. Still 65. But he broke the drought!

17) Parris - Has a good opportunity to jump up the p4p ladder with good results Thursday & Friday. I hope he takes advantage because his opportunities are going to be limited.

18) Hendrickson - He's that good, he's just in a domestically stacked weight. I believe he would bring home hardware right now if he started doing the senior circuit. He's just behind a medal contender who's behind the best in the world. It's a JB/Dake/Taylor/Howe problem at 125.

19) Gwiz - Father Time is undefeated and that's a shame. He might still be able to beat Hendrickson but I believe it would only be the first time and the results would swing the other way going forward.

20) Kerk - Don't sleep on the big boring tree if he ever puts it together. Big IF. Did I mention 125 is our deepest weight?

As an Okie State fan I've seen this speculation quite a few times but I say no way to Fix regressing or needing a change of scenery. I know it's a fun thought exercise to wonder "what if" but with the crazy amount of buildup to NCAAs this year and subsequent let-down I think Fix's deal is all expectations and emotions. Doesn't matter that Vito destroyed everybody, Fix was *supposed to win* - home crowd, rematch with RBY, all that. I've matched nearly all of Fix's matches over his 15 year long (lol) college career both folkstyle and freestyle. This past dual season, Fix looked better than ever - stronger, faster, smarter, more dominant, more varied offense, more turns. Think he was taken down once and no opponent even sniffed a chance at victory. He does seem to lock up a bit and rely too much on his couple of main moves at times but it's been that way since his freshman year. And he still handled DeSanto with relative ease to make world team alternate which was part and parcel during their college matchups. No idea what happened with the Nashon match, other than speculation that Nashon prepared for Daton and Daton prepared to do Daton things. And no comment on the water bottle (well plenty of comments, no need to get into it though lol)

Love the rest of the list though! Not a criticism at all. Just me being an Okie State homer

I am waiting to see Retherford jump levels. He certainly has the chops but maybe freestyle's lesser focus on mat wrestling is the difference maker here. Dude was an absolute animal with turns and pins.

[nhs67]

2 minutes ago, alex1fly said:

As an Okie State fan I've seen this speculation quite a few times but I say no way to Fix regressing or needing a change of scenery. I know it's a fun thought exercise to wonder "what if" but with the crazy amount of buildup to NCAAs this year and subsequent let-down I think Fix's deal is all expectations and emotions. Doesn't matter that Vito destroyed everybody, Fix was *supposed to win* - home crowd, rematch with RBY, all that. I've matched nearly all of Fix's matches over his 15 year long (lol) college career both folkstyle and freestyle. This past dual season, Fix looked better than ever - stronger, faster, smarter, more dominant, more varied offense, more turns. Think he was taken down once and no opponent even sniffed a chance at victory. He does seem to lock up a bit and rely too much on his couple of main moves at times but it's been that way since his freshman year. And he still handled DeSanto with relative ease to make world team alternate which was part and parcel during their college matchups. No idea what happened with the Nashon match, other than speculation that Nashon prepared for Daton and Daton prepared to do Daton things. And no comment on the water bottle (well plenty of comments, no need to get into it though lol)

Love the rest of the list though! Not a criticism at all. Just me being an Okie State homer

I am waiting to see Retherford jump levels. He certainly has the chops but maybe freestyle's lesser focus on mat wrestling is the difference maker here. Dude was an absolute animal with turns and pins.

What about his regression when dealing with McGee?  He went form beating McGee 5-1 to losing to him 2-1.  Those matches looked vastly different.  It wasn't McGee improving (only).  He looked very mortal against some mediocre opponents this last season (McGee's bonus point percentage dropped nearly 10%).  Of note as well... Fix's bonus point total dropped nearly 15% last season.  So looking 'better than ever' appears inaccurate.

[bnwtwg]

15 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

What about his regression when dealing with McGee?  He went form beating McGee 5-1 to losing to him 2-1.  Those matches looked vastly different.  It wasn't McGee improving (only).  He looked very mortal against some mediocre opponents this last season (McGee's bonus point percentage dropped nearly 10%).  Of note as well... Fix's bonus point total dropped nearly 15% last season.  So looking 'better than ever' appears inaccurate.

Fix went from world team in ‘19 over Gilman to whatever he is today. I can forgive folkstyle losses to Suriano, RBY, and Vito because 1) folk and 2) they may end up with world medals themselves. But losing the spot to Gross last year, not competing at Final X this year, the NCAA losses this year… I call that serious regression because he set the bar high from the jump. He needs a whisperer.

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

I am okay if you add Spencer Lee...

For clarity...

I’m prepared to pay extra for the Cleveland Steamer this hot take will get. I took Final X into consideration but again, my list my (bad) opinion

1. Snyder
2. Dake
3. Taylor
4. Steveson
5. Burroughs
6. Cox
7. Spencer Lee
8. Gilman
9. Parris
10. Zahid
11. AB
12. Retherford

Edited July 11, 2023 by bnwtwg
added numbers because i'm a data visualization type of feller

[nhs67]

26 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

I’m prepared to pay extra for the Cleveland Steamer this hot take will get. I took Final X into consideration but again, my list my (bad) opinion

1. Snyder
2. Dake
3. Taylor
4. Steveson
5. Burroughs
6. Cox
7. Spencer Lee
8. Gilman
9. Parris
10. Zahid
11. AB
12. Retherford

Where does that kid from Purdue rank?  The one who decked him while winning (at Folkstyle)?

[alex1fly]

1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

Fix went from world team in ‘19 over Gilman to whatever he is today. I can forgive folkstyle losses to Suriano, RBY, and Vito because 1) folk and 2) they may end up with world medals themselves. But losing the spot to Gross last year, not competing at Final X this year, the NCAA losses this year… I call that serious regression because he set the bar high from the jump. He needs a whisperer.

 

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

What about his regression when dealing with McGee?  He went form beating McGee 5-1 to losing to him 2-1.  Those matches looked vastly different.  It wasn't McGee improving (only).  He looked very mortal against some mediocre opponents this last season (McGee's bonus point percentage dropped nearly 10%).  Of note as well... Fix's bonus point total dropped nearly 15% last season.  So looking 'better than ever' appears inaccurate.

I mean you could pick any wrestler and scrutinize some bad matches while quoting statistics. I've watched Daton wrestle over 100 matches and I stand by my statement that he looked monstrous for the most part in 2022-2023 dual season. But fair point about setting the bar high early - when you roll up freshman year and place 2nd at NCAAs, anything less than that is going to stand out. And I'm sure he would benefit from another perspective but luckily Okie State has brought in some All Star Pokes from the past this off season. Anyway just rambling, back to the thread at hand lol

[bnwtwg]

22 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Where does that kid from Purdue rank?  The one who decked him while winning (at Folkstyle)?

The same place as Marstellar, Yianni, Imar, and Logan Massa: not on the big board.

[bnwtwg]

31 minutes ago, alex1fly said:

 

I mean you could pick any wrestler and scrutinize some bad matches while quoting statistics. I've watched Daton wrestle over 100 matches and I stand by my statement that he looked monstrous for the most part in 2022-2023 dual season. But fair point about setting the bar high early - when you roll up freshman year and place 2nd at NCAAs, anything less than that is going to stand out. And I'm sure he would benefit from another perspective but luckily Okie State has brought in some All Star Pokes from the past this off season. Anyway just rambling, back to the thread at hand lol

This isn't the NCAA board and folkstyle means didley squat to the superior freestyle. Thus why Fix, who can't even take off the turtleneck at NCAAs, has a '19 world team and a cheap '21 world silver on his resume and is part of this discussion. He's regressing at the senior level and that's all that matters to this particular conversation.

[pokemonster]

7 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

15) N. Lee - Ehh 65. And he got torqued by Musukaev like he just kicked his dog.

Never knew he wrestled him. Just watched the match and damn, he got absolutely worked. It looked like he wasn't trying and literally scored with ease every time he tried. Lets hope he can make some significant adjustments next time. 

[nhs67]

57 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

The same place as Marstellar, Yianni, Imar, and Logan Massa: not on the big board.

Why you got to go there?

He will be right there when it matters.

[nhs67]

1 hour ago, alex1fly said:

 

I mean you could pick any wrestler and scrutinize some bad matches while quoting statistics. I've watched Daton wrestle over 100 matches and I stand by my statement that he looked monstrous for the most part in 2022-2023 dual season. But fair point about setting the bar high early - when you roll up freshman year and place 2nd at NCAAs, anything less than that is going to stand out. And I'm sure he would benefit from another perspective but luckily Okie State has brought in some All Star Pokes from the past this off season. Anyway just rambling, back to the thread at hand lol

I didn't pick and choose random results.

I picked the stats from all of his results combined of the last two seasons.

I also picked the only common opponent he had at both the last two NCAAs, which is when it actually matters.

They are both very significant when judging his legacy in Folkstyle aren't they?

[MPhillips]

21 minutes ago, pokemonster said:

Lets hope he can make some significant adjustments next time. 

Lets hope indeed.  There's a book on how to beat Muskaev.  Lee must not have read it.

Edited July 11, 2023 by MPhillips

[bnwtwg]

45 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Why you got to go there?

He will be right there when it matters.

I put Imar there first and in the same place: dad bod category. Nothing wrong with going that direction in life - I just didn't want you to think I was biased