Uetake = Sanderson ???

[Zahnarzt]

Yojiro Uetake was 58-0 in his collegiate career winning 3 NCAA titles.  Granted Cael won 100 more matches in his perfect career.  Are these the only 2 to go undefeated for their careers?  And why aren’t they put up on the same pedestal?  Anyone think Uetake wouldn’t have been a 4x undefeated champ given the opportunity?  Or wouldn’t have won his next 100 matches given how dominant he was in the 58 he wrestled?

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, Zahnarzt said:

Yojiro Uetake was 58-0 in his collegiate career winning 3 NCAA titles.  Granted Cael won 100 more matches in his perfect career.  Are these the only 2 to go undefeated for their careers?  And why aren’t they put up on the same pedestal?  Anyone think Uetake wouldn’t have been a 4x undefeated champ given the opportunity?  Or wouldn’t have won his next 100 matches given how dominant he was in the 58 he wrestled?

Uetake > Sanderson 

He won Olympics while in college, never beat, never challenged.

There were several other 3x undefeated.

[LJB]

it is not even a fair comparison...

my guess is cael would say the same thing whether he really believed it or not...

[Wrestleknownothing]

Bill Koll was undefeated in the 40's and Dan Hodge was undefeated in the 50's.

There were also a few guys prior to the war, like Earl McCready, but they wrestled very few matches back then. In 3 years McCready only wrestled 25 matches.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

IMO, fans get too worked up about statistics (including W/L) and the importance of them. The stats are almost always overrated.

I think guys who have losses like Vito, Gomez, KOT, (a ton more), etc. really get after it and that is far more important than some other wrestler having better stats.

Not to pick specifically on Fix or Lewan, but wrestling with the idea that you want to win a strategic match rather than get after it is a lose/lose situation - loss for both fans and for the sport.

Judging wrestlers' greatness by their W/L record and other stats is a crutch used by those who don't know wrestling. Some of the greatest wrestlers took losses. That's OK.

[82bordeaux]

7 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Bill Koll was undefeated in the 40's and Dan Hodge was undefeated in the 50's.

I think they should get extra credit for still wrestling at that age...

[gimpeltf]

Dibatista

https://www.eiwawrestling.org/HOF/Hall_of_Fame/dibatista-dick?view=bio

 

 

[Eagle26]

IMO, fans get too worked up about statistics (including W/L) and the importance of them. The stats are almost always overrated.
I think guys who have losses like Vito, Gomez, KOT, (a ton more), etc. really get after it and that is far more important than some other wrestler having better stats.
Not to pick specifically on Fix or Lewan, but wrestling with the idea that you want to win a strategic match rather than get after it is a lose/lose situation - loss for both fans and for the sport.
Judging wrestlers' greatness by their W/L record and other stats is a crutch used by those who don't know wrestling. Some of the greatest wrestlers took losses. That's OK.

This is exactly why Taylor was a better college wrestler than Dake

[Wrestleknownothing]

2 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

Dibatista

https://www.eiwawrestling.org/HOF/Hall_of_Fame/dibatista-dick?view=bio

 

 

It is funny how unreliable some of these old write ups are.

DiBatista's NWHOF bio references his win over a 29 year old opponent in the 1941 final (https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/98)

That "29 year old" opponent was Al Crawford, whose NWHOF bio calls him 24, but based on birth year was  either 25 or 26. (https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/15395)

Crawford's bio also indirectly accuses DiBatista of stalling in the 1941 final to the extent that it caused a rule change.

[HighCrotch86]

Both were incredible.  I've always given the edge to Uetake because of his international level accomplishments. 

[scourge165]

 

Yojiro Uetake was 58-0 in his collegiate career winning 3 NCAA titles.  Granted Cael won 100 more matches in his perfect career.  Are these the only 2 to go undefeated for their careers?  And why aren’t they put up on the same pedestal?  Anyone think Uetake wouldn’t have been a 4x undefeated champ given the opportunity?  Or wouldn’t have won his next 100 matches given how dominant he was in the 58 he wrestled?

He was an Olympic champ a year before his first NCAA Title...so while you can't just hand out NCs, I think it's safe to say he would have won it.

 

As for where he ranks all-time...we're really just guessing. 2X Olympic Champ, 3X undefeated Champ...the credentials speak for themselves. It's just like the Iowa vs PSU matchup. It's too difficult to compare Wrestlers from one era to another.

 

 

IMO, fans get too worked up about statistics (including W/L) and the importance of them. The stats are almost always overrated.

I think guys who have losses like Vito, Gomez, KOT, (a ton more), etc. really get after it and that is far more important than some other wrestler having better stats.

Not to pick specifically on Fix or Lewan, but wrestling with the idea that you want to win a strategic match rather than get after it is a lose/lose situation - loss for both fans and for the sport.

Judging wrestlers' greatness by their W/L record and other stats is a crutch used by those who don't know wrestling. Some of the greatest wrestlers took losses. That's OK.

Agreed. I don't quite have the same issue with guys who wrestle a more strategic match. It depends who it is. Marinelli or RBY? One is capable of attacking and wrestling "strategically" is a choice. One is just limited physically and he needs to try and sorta grind you down and wear you out. It's one of the things Cael CLEARLY does a good job at, having his Wrestlers attack without the fear of giving up points. That's a metal hurdle a lot of guys struggle to get over.

But just again, I think you're absolutely right...there is no formula to come up with the best Wrestlers ever. Every 3X Champ isn't ahead of David Taylor. Every 4X Champ isn't ahead of every 3X Champ.

Lee Kemp is ahead of...Logan Stieber in my opinion. He lost in the finals on a referees decision....by the way, lets bring that back...see how fun we can make shit next year! Just have refs picking who wins if the match is tied after 7 minutes! I want no criteria...I want to hear a ref say to Tom Brands upon asking why Real Woods lost on a referees decision, "because you're very mean to me." 

Seriously though, it's NEVER as simple as putting shit into a formula. BUT...it also makes it virtually impossible to really rank Wrestlers from before the ~80s.

A lot of my opinions are informed by a couple guys who Wrestled in the 80s, who saw these Wrestlers, one who reffed and actually reffed a lot of Iowa. But I guess that's how it works in every sport, isn't it?

If you actually know Football, you understand you can't compare QB stats from the 1970s to today. The game has just changed too much. 

[scourge165]

 

Both were incredible.  I've always given the edge to Uetake because of his international level accomplishments. 

And I'll give the edge to Cael because...I've seen him. 

For ME to give it to Uetake, it'd be coming from a place of ignorance and just looking at his accomplishments. I don't have Cael ranked over Uetake, I just don't have Uetake ranked.

But I really do get and respect why others feel differently. 

[AgaveMaria]

Having seen both I'll take Uetake. He could have won big all the time but his culture did not do that. He won and did not openly dominate the opponents - something he could have easily done most of the time. As Myron Roderick said: I never saw him tested".

Remember the match when a ref called him for Stalling. He hurt the other wrestler - and did not even go all out or intend to hurt him.

After competing he was a Grad Assistant would get very frustrated as no one on the team could even do his normal warm up exercises. He really was "that much better" than the competition.

Cael was excellence on the mat. A few close matches, very few. One the stallfest over Damion Hahn. Cael did not like wrestling guys who would beat on him. Somthing more allowed in International Competition, and it showed.

He was excellent, probably the greatest talent we had next to John Smith at the time.

But, one match for all the marbles and I will still go with Yojo.

[peanut]

A bunch of people went undefeated during the era of three years of eligibility.

As for comparing great wrestlers of the past, I always remember what Kobe said. It's great for the fans, but for the athletes its too simplistic. Sports are a chain reaction, where one athlete serves as a role model for the next one, and where one athlete opens up possibilities for the next one.

[gimpeltf]

1 hour ago, AgaveMaria said:

Remember the match when a ref called him for Stalling. He hurt the other wrestler - and did not even go all out or intend to hurt him.

I don't remember hearing he hurt him but he did pin him.

It was Joe Peritore of Lehigh who on the way off the mat told the ref to mind his own business next time.