PSU Best Ever vs Iowa Best Ever - who wins?

[Le duke]

I agree with the sentiment that you can’t give extra credit to the more “modern” wrestlers because of technical advances in the sport. Iowa was dominant and innovative under Gable and they would find a way to have the same success today. That said I still favor Penn State at 157 and up. I think Iowa wins 149 and under. Interesting how it is split because Iowa still seems to be producing better in the lightweights and Penn State is dominating middle and upper weights.

Is that actually true, though?

If you look at the last ten years, Penn State has 5 national championships at 125, 133 and 141. Iowa has 3 at those weights (all Spencer).


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[Pinnacle]

1 hour ago, Eagle26 said:

I agree with the sentiment that you can’t give extra credit to the more “modern” wrestlers because of technical advances in the sport. Iowa was dominant and innovative under Gable and they would find a way to have the same success today. That said I still favor Penn State at 157 and up. I think Iowa wins 149 and under. Interesting how it is split because Iowa still seems to be producing better in the lightweights and Penn State is dominating middle and upper weights.

Ever hear of Jim Peters? He broke the marathon world record 4 times over a three span in the 1950's. He always found a way to win as well.

The current WR is more than 17 minutes faster. Times change. Athletes evolve. 

[Eagle26]

57 minutes ago, Le duke said:

Is that actually true, though?

If you look at the last ten years, Penn State has 5 national championships at 125, 133 and 141. Iowa has 3 at those weights (all Spencer).


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Fair point, but you are only looking at national champs. Iowa has had a lot of great wrestlers in those weights in the last 10 years. Penn state has had the gaping hole at 125 for a few years which is what makes this sentiment come to mind. In other words, Penn state wins 133 and 141 in close matches and Iowa wins 125 by landslide. So yeah it’s debatable who is actually better in those weights.

[Eagle26]

10 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

Ever hear of Jim Peters? He broke the marathon world record 4 times over a three span in the 1950's. He always found a way to win as well.

The current WR is more than 17 minutes faster. Times change. Athletes evolve. 

I have not heard of him (don’t follow the sport), but if you were putting him on a list of All-time great marathon runners, wouldn’t you have him up near the top behind the current world record holder? Or would you say he is behind guys that never set a world record but can run one in a faster time than he can?

[Crotalus]

1 hour ago, Le duke said:

Is that actually true, though?

If you look at the last ten years, Penn State has 5 national championships at 125, 133 and 141. Iowa has 3 at those weights (all Spencer).


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You might want to double check that. 

(Hint: you're missing two at 133 for Iowa. Which would put it at three different wrestlers winning 5 NCs at those weights for each team in the last 10 years.)

[Pinnacle]

20 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I have not heard of him (don’t follow the sport), but if you were putting him on a list of All-time great marathon runners, wouldn’t you have him up near the top behind the current world record holder? Or would you say he is behind guys that never set a world record but can run one in a faster time than he can?

There are literally many thousands of runners who have run faster marathons than Peters. They are therefore faster. If the question is who would win a race are you going to pick the 2 hr 18 minute runner or the 2 hr 12 minute or 2 hr 3 minute runner?

The thread asked who would win, not who had better accomplishments in their time. 

[Le duke]

You might want to double check that. 
(Hint: you're missing two at 133 for Iowa. Which would put it at three different wrestlers winning 5 NCs at those weights for each team in the last 10 years.)

Ramos and Clark. Crap.

Point still stands. Iowa is hardly blowing Penn State out of the water.


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[Eagle26]

There are literally many thousands of runners who have run faster marathons than Peters. They are therefore faster. If the question is who would win a race are you going to pick the 2 hr 18 minute runner or the 2 hr 12 minute or 2 hr 3 minute runner?
The thread asked who would win, not who had better accomplishments in their time. 

It’s a hypothetical situation of putting athletes in their peak form in a different time period. I don’t think it would work they way you are saying (of course we will never know). My point is if Jim Peters was in his prime now, he’d probably be pushing the 2 hour mark. If Eluid was running in the 50s he probably be only slightly ahead of Peters.

[Crotalus]

23 minutes ago, Le duke said:

Ramos and Clark. Crap.

Point still stands. Iowa is hardly blowing Penn State out of the water.


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But if we look at just 125 and 133 the last 10 years, Iowa is up five champs to three! 

In reality, the only weight anyone can say PSU has struggled at is 125. And Cael seems pretty content to more than make up for it across the other nine weights. 

[Pinnacle]

4 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

It’s a hypothetical situation of putting athletes in their peak form in a different time period. I don’t think it would work they way you are saying (of course we will never know). My point is if Jim Peters was in his prime now, he’d probably be pushing the 2 hour mark. If Eluid was running in the 50s he probably be only slightly ahead of Peters.

The sport has evolved under Sanderson. His guys would beat the old Iowa style. They already have beaten that style time and time again. This hypo does not make the Iowa style better.

[Gus]

15 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

The sport has evolved under Sanderson. His guys would beat the old Iowa style. They already have beaten that style time and time again. This hypo does not make the Iowa style better.

Not necessarily. The hypothetical is that Gable was innovative for his time and pumped out world class wrestlers with his style/training. He was the tip of the spear. In the same way, Cael has evolved and changed game to pump out world class wrestlers. His style is much different than Gable but the common theme between the two is the innovation that they displayed to separate themselves from the field. High achievers like Gable and Cael are adaptable and will find a way to win regardless of their circumstances. If you think Dan Gable would try to win today on toughness and grit alone, you are selling him very very short. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

What would Iowa's All-Time Second Team look like? I'm sure there would be plenty of debate but my gut tells me even the backup squad would give PSU's GOATs a tough go... Ironside, Lewis, Davis, Alger, Terry, Metcalf, McDonough, TJ, Steiners, Schwab... does Mocco count? Still, a lot of hammers to pick from.

[Gus]

13 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

What would Iowa's All-Time Second Team look like? I'm sure there would be plenty of debate but my gut tells me even the backup squad would give PSU's GOATs a tough go... Ironside, Lewis, Davis, Alger, Terry, Metcalf, McDonough, TJ, Steiners, Schwab... does Mocco count? Still, a lot of hammers to pick from.

I’m not convinced that Lewis isn’t first team. He’s an Olympic champion and would likely be 3x ncaa champion if not for an elbow dislocation. 

[flyingcement]

11 hours ago, Zahnarzt said:

Post your all-time ISU lineup and let’s see how they would stack up.  Would be interesting to see an all-time lineup from OkSt as well, maybe a few others. 

125: Dwight Hinson

133: Larry Hayes

141: Tim Krieger 

149: Dan Gable

157: Nate Carr

165: Chuck Jean

174: Kevin Jackson 

184: Ben Peterson

197: Cael Sanderson

HWT: Jake Varner 

[CHROMEBIRD]

4 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

125: Dwight Hinson

133: Larry Hayes

141: Tim Krieger 

149: Dan Gable

157: Nate Carr

165: Chuck Jean

174: Kevin Jackson 

184: Ben Peterson

197: Cael Sanderson

HWT: Jake Varner 

Solid lineup. Impressive.

[Pinnacle]

20 hours ago, Zahnarzt said:

Interesting to note that 9 out of 10 in the all-time PSU lineup wrested under Cael’s tutelage.  I’m not knowledgeable when you go back pre-1990’s…How many of Iowa’s lineup listed here were coached by Gable?  Everyone except Lee?  If so, perfect example of the effect these 2 legends have had on their protégés. 

That is correct. Every line up posted in this thread for Iowa has 9 wrestlers from the Dan Gable era and 1 wrestler from the Tom Brands era which is a basic continuation of the Dan Gable era just without the same results. And why do they not have the same results? Because Sanderson's wrestlers have changed the sport. Wrestling has evolved. 

[Pinnacle]

9 hours ago, Gus said:

Not necessarily. The hypothetical is that Gable was innovative for his time and pumped out world class wrestlers with his style/training. He was the tip of the spear. In the same way, Cael has evolved and changed game to pump out world class wrestlers. His style is much different than Gable but the common theme between the two is the innovation that they displayed to separate themselves from the field. High achievers like Gable and Cael are adaptable and will find a way to win regardless of their circumstances. If you think Dan Gable would try to win today on toughness and grit alone, you are selling him very very short. 

You are answering a different question than what was asked. The asked question is Iowa's best vs PSU's best and who would win. Since we know that Sanderson's techniques have replaced Iowa's best style we also know that today's PSU wrestlers would defeat Iowa's Gable led wrestlers. 

Look at this another way. A guy like Marinelli might be a 3x Champ back in the Gable era. In the current era he never came close. But if he were 30 years older he'd be in the pantheon of Iowa wrestling lore. 

Wrestling has evolved. It is different today. What won Championships in the 1980's and 1990's gets you sixth place today. 

[Gus]

1 hour ago, Pinnacle said:

You are answering a different question than what was asked. The asked question is Iowa's best vs PSU's best and who would win. Since we know that Sanderson's techniques have replaced Iowa's best style we also know that today's PSU wrestlers would defeat Iowa's Gable led wrestlers. 

Look at this another way. A guy like Marinelli might be a 3x Champ back in the Gable era. In the current era he never came close. But if he were 30 years older he'd be in the pantheon of Iowa wrestling lore. 

Wrestling has evolved. It is different today. What won Championships in the 1980's and 1990's gets you sixth place today. 

Well then this is a silly conversation to begin with. Just pick all the recent guys to win and move on. 

[jchapman]

1 hour ago, Pinnacle said:

You are answering a different question than what was asked. The asked question is Iowa's best vs PSU's best and who would win. Since we know that Sanderson's techniques have replaced Iowa's best style we also know that today's PSU wrestlers would defeat Iowa's Gable led wrestlers. 

Look at this another way. A guy like Marinelli might be a 3x Champ back in the Gable era. In the current era he never came close. But if he were 30 years older he'd be in the pantheon of Iowa wrestling lore. 

Wrestling has evolved. It is different today. What won Championships in the 1980's and 1990's gets you sixth place today. 

I would love to see Kemp vs O'Toole in an all-time fantasy match at 158/165.  Do you think O'Toole would tie Kemp into knots?

[Pinnacle]

1 minute ago, jchapman said:

I would love to see Kemp vs O'Toole in an all-time fantasy match at 158/165.  Do you think O'Toole would tie Kemp into knots?

Do you think Bobby Jones would defeat Tiger Woods? 

[Husker_Du]

wasn't KJ at ISU for only a year? 

[jchapman]

38 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

Do you think Bobby Jones would defeat Tiger Woods? 

I know nothing about golf.

[Pinnacle]

44 minutes ago, jchapman said:

I know nothing about golf.

Let me give you the short story on Bobby Jones vs Tiger Woods. This will offer you one more example of this very basic premise.

Bobby Jones won a higher percentage of the golf majors he played in than any golfer who ever lived. The second guy on that list is not even close, so on that statistic alone anyone could make the claim that he is the best golfer who ever lived. 

But would Bobby Jones at his very best be predicted to defeat a modern golfer like Tiger Woods?  No.

When Jones played they didn't use wedges, they used a far inferior club called a niblick. His "irons" and "drivers" were made out of persimmon wood. The ball he used was a wound rubber band covered with sap from the balata tree. And Jones felt good about that golf ball because at least it wasn't "gutta percha" or, worse, a "feathery". 

Modern golfers like Tiger Woods use graphite and carbon in his golf clubs, modern resin layered golf balls covered in urethane that travel much farther than balatas, wedges that were precision milled, and he had launch monitors to illustrate every minute imperceptible to the human eye statistic about his golf swing, its plane and his launch angle. 

Golf has evolved. Jones as he knew and played the game would not be competitive on today's professional tour. 

Bringing Bobby Jones into the future and hypothesizing that same win rate is folly. There is no way to do it. 

If you brought the Banachs or McIlreavys into today's world the easier leap to make is that they might have just chosen to wrestle for Cael Sanderson. He is the best right now and his strategies have beaten those used by Dan Gable. Just utilizing the skill set they had learned on the past when they wrestled and bringing it forward to wrestle today I think the PSU Sanderson trained wrestler wins. 

If anyone wants to see an actual niblick then head to your nearby muni course and look for the 88 year old golfers. Some of those guys still keep one in the bag. Nostalgia is a wonderful thing. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Pinnacle

[11986]

1 hour ago, Husker_Du said:

wasn't KJ at ISU for only a year? 

Pretty sure that’s correct. Transferred in after LSU dropped I think. 

[11986]

11 hours ago, flyingcement said:

125: Dwight Hinson

133: Larry Hayes

141: Tim Krieger 

149: Dan Gable

157: Nate Carr

165: Chuck Jean

174: Kevin Jackson 

184: Ben Peterson

197: Cael Sanderson

HWT: Jake Varner 

Great group. Love to see Krieger, a career 150 in the 80s make 141 with a 1 hour weigh-in though. He’d be a 157 today.