Where Does Lee Rank?

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, Threadkilla said:

Ruth didn't get pinned he injury defaulted against Amuchastegui after the second period.    But he wrestled back and got third.    They wrestled the following year in the NCAA final and Ruth won 13-2.

My mistake, I thought he ended up getting pinned.

I knew he wrestled back for 3(which I did NOT see happening at the time) and that he worked Amuchastegui over pretty good the next year.

That tournament my view on Ruth did a complete 180 and his toughness. I thought he'd MFF out, watching it live, I thought he kinda quit(I was very wrong, you can tell he tweaked something early in that match with a 2-1 lead). And you watch him getting turned and the Stanford kid is really working on that right leg.

So for Ruth to come back as a Freshmen and get 3rd...that impressed the hell out of me. 

 

[scourge165]

On 3/24/2023 at 3:10 PM, VakAttack said:

I didn't assume it was guaranteed, I said highly likely. Upsets happen (obviously).  I believe what I said was Iowa and Spencer likely end up with 2 and 4 but for COVID, and instead ended up winning 1 and 3.  I'm not granting Spencer 4 titles.  He's a three timer, sadly (for me).

This is not only perfectly reasonable, but it's the consensus among Wrestling fans, aficionado's, experts...and even those like LBJ!!!

In other words, everyone knew how it'd likely play out in 2020!

(I kid, I kid...I don't want another round). 

[Threadkilla]

6 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

My mistake, I thought he ended up getting pinned.

I knew he wrestled back for 3(which I did NOT see happening at the time) and that he worked Amuchastegui over pretty good the next year.

That tournament my view on Ruth did a complete 180 and his toughness. I thought he'd MFF out, watching it live, I thought he kinda quit(I was very wrong, you can tell he tweaked something early in that match with a 2-1 lead). And you watch him getting turned and the Stanford kid is really working on that right leg.

So for Ruth to come back as a Freshmen and get 3rd...that impressed the hell out of me. 

 

The tournament was in Philadelphia and we were about 10 rows up.    So i remembered it pretty vividly.  He was much more physically mature the following years.  His standing cradle was amazing. 

 

[dragit]

23 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

My mistake, I thought he ended up getting pinned.

I knew he wrestled back for 3(which I did NOT see happening at the time) and that he worked Amuchastegui over pretty good the next year.

That tournament my view on Ruth did a complete 180 and his toughness. I thought he'd MFF out, watching it live, I thought he kinda quit(I was very wrong, you can tell he tweaked something early in that match with a 2-1 lead). And you watch him getting turned and the Stanford kid is really working on that right leg.

So for Ruth to come back as a Freshmen and get 3rd...that impressed the hell out of me. 

 

Exactly.  He was in a ton of pain, so much so that I recall being really annoyed at the Stanford coaches' incessant yelling at their guy when it was obvious that Ruth couldn't function and wasn't going to be able finish the match.

[dragit]

21 hours ago, ionel said:

 

I'm too lazy to look it up, were any of the above ever pinned?

Yes - Captain America was - I WANT SOME ICE CREAM!!!

[peanut]

21 hours ago, swoopdown said:

Grant knew how to apply superior strength to maintain the initiative against defense, stalls and counters.  That was his genius.  No other cracked the code against Lee.  If Lee had not entered the portal he may have developed an effective offensive game, but he made his choice and was effectively countered on his two offensive thrusts.

Bobby Lee was effective at holding ground among a friendly population. And holding ground included fierce counterattacks. But when Lee tried to fight in the North, he wasn't effective. (Of course, before Antietam, the outmatched McClellan obtained Lee's battle plans, which helped McClellan fight to a stalemate.)

Out west, Grant and Sherman, together, developed the idea that they were fighting an insurrection rather than a traditional war, and so they began targeting the South's capacity to fight. Grant and Sherman eventually took that strategy to the east when Grant was promoted to Commanding General of the US Army. The North won when Grant held Lee in place in Virginia while Sherman was let loose on Georgia, South Carolina, and North Carolina. (There were other raids by other generals, but Sherman's raids were the most notable.)

In the end, the South had the advantage of being able to hold ground in friendly territory, while the North had superior manpower and firepower. Eventually, the North won by exploiting its strengths.

It is sort of like how in the Lee-Ramos march, Lee had an advantage from the top position, while Ramos had an advantage from neutral. Each competitor attempted to exploit their advantage. In the semis, Ramos ended up winning by exploiting his advantage from neutral.

[Offthemat]

31 minutes ago, peanut said:

Bobby Lee was effective at holding ground among a friendly population. And holding ground included fierce counterattacks. But when Lee tried to fight in the North, he wasn't effective. (Of course, before Antietam, the outmatched McClellan obtained Lee's battle plans, which helped McClellan fight to a stalemate.)

Out west, Grant and Sherman, together, developed the idea that they were fighting an insurrection rather than a traditional war, and so they began targeting the South's capacity to fight. Grant and Sherman eventually took that strategy to the east when Grant was promoted to Commanding General of the US Army. The North won when Grant held Lee in place in Virginia while Sherman was let loose on Georgia, South Carolina, and North Carolina. (There were other raids by other generals, but Sherman's raids were the most notable.)

In the end, the South had the advantage of being able to hold ground in friendly territory, while the North had superior manpower and firepower. Eventually, the North won by exploiting its strengths.

It is sort of like how in the Lee-Ramos march, Lee had an advantage from the top position, while Ramos had an advantage from neutral. Each competitor attempted to exploit their advantage. In the semis, Ramos ended up winning by exploiting his advantage from neutral.

It’s all history now, though. 

[scourge165]

8 hours ago, Threadkilla said:

The tournament was in Philadelphia and we were about 10 rows up.    So i remembered it pretty vividly.  He was much more physically mature the following years.  His standing cradle was amazing. 

 

Yeah, I caught the start of the match, saw him get in on a few shots, then finish the shot. Then was watching Lewnes and came back, 9-2. 

He did mature physically of course, but he NEVER looked like he was trying. I don't remember anyone making it look easier. He was stronger than he looked, quicker and that grip HAD to have been insane. You ALWAYS felt like he had another TD in him if he needed it. 

Just incredibly fun to watch...and I also kinda hated him. Nobody should make College Wrestling look that easy!

[jmoney]

I could honestly see Gilman make Lee cry 

[jmoney]

Lee had some good battles with Rivera. Rivera moving up and dominating impressed me. Rivera wrestled some weak opposition senior year but annhilated opponents. One knock I'll make against Lee is the lightest weight is full of Fresh/Soph. Also Lee did not destroy people in NCAA finals. When Lee met a game opponent at his level the matches were close. If Suriano hadn't bumped up, Lee-Suriano could have been a close battle for years. I think in some ways the lack of a dominant #2 made Lee appear better. Lee beating Tomasello in 2 of 3 meetings is so impressive for Lee. It is one of his finest achievements and places him very highly on the list.

[VakAttack]

37 minutes ago, jmoney said:

 One knock I'll make against Lee is the lightest weight is full of Fresh/Soph. 

Six of the 8 All Americans at 125 were upperclassmen, what are you talking about? 

[jmoney]

15 hours ago, VakAttack said:

Six of the 8 All Americans at 125 were upperclassmen, what are you talking about? 

In Wreslestat rankings 7 of the top 20 are Freshman. No other weight class has that dominant a freshman class this year. I admittedly was assuming pulling from the experience of high school 103-106 pounders being overpopulated by younger guys and it does appear to be the case at this weight class too. Some weight classes (I believe 2) have 0 freshman in the top 20. My point was that him dominating 125 isn’t as impressive to me as him dominating 133/141.  
 

That said, at 125 I can’t think of a guy as dominant who I’ve ever seen. 

[PortaJohn]

On 3/25/2023 at 5:17 PM, peanut said:

Bobby Lee was effective at holding ground among a friendly population. And holding ground included fierce counterattacks. But when Lee tried to fight in the North, he wasn't effective. (Of course, before Antietam, the outmatched McClellan obtained Lee's battle plans, which helped McClellan fight to a stalemate.)

Out west, Grant and Sherman, together, developed the idea that they were fighting an insurrection rather than a traditional war, and so they began targeting the South's capacity to fight. Grant and Sherman eventually took that strategy to the east when Grant was promoted to Commanding General of the US Army. The North won when Grant held Lee in place in Virginia while Sherman was let loose on Georgia, South Carolina, and North Carolina. (There were other raids by other generals, but Sherman's raids were the most notable.)

In the end, the South had the advantage of being able to hold ground in friendly territory, while the North had superior manpower and firepower. Eventually, the North won by exploiting its strengths.

It is sort of like how in the Lee-Ramos march, Lee had an advantage from the top position, while Ramos had an advantage from neutral. Each competitor attempted to exploit their advantage. In the semis, Ramos ended up winning by exploiting his advantage from neutral.

You're missing a huge piece of the North's victory in the Civil War. The often forgotten Anaconda Plan culminating at the siege on Vicksburg which in many ways was as important or if not more important than Gettysburg or Sherman's march.