Eliminate redshirting

[ionel]

1 minute ago, boconnell said:

Lots of statistics show that the majority of students currently take more than 4 years to graduate college with a bachelors.

let's see the data, if a majority should be easy to find the data.  Most all undergrad programs are designed to be completed in 4 years (could be a couple exceptions like Architecture).  @Wrestleknownothing is now rocket scientists status and we know very good with data, maybe he can help put together some tables. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

27 minutes ago, ionel said:

let's see the data, if a majority should be easy to find the data.  Most all undergrad programs are designed to be completed in 4 years (could be a couple exceptions like Architecture).  @Wrestleknownothing is now rocket scientists status and we know very good with data, maybe he can help put together some tables. 

After completing an exhaustive study of students who were once on the dole in my house (sample size=4), I have conclusively determined that half of all students take more than four years to graduate.

[98lberEating2Lunches]

49 minutes ago, boconnell said:

Lots of statistics show that the majority of students currently take more than 4 years to graduate college with a bachelors.

Obviously the solution includes making all universities 5-year institutions with 5 year scholarships.  That should put all the tuba players and Chem E majors at ease while actually increasing scholarships.

Edited November 7, 2022 by 98lberEating2Lunches

[98lberEating2Lunches]

Military academies are ideal for rocket scientists with an aversion to redshirts and a penchant for equal treatment among athletes, tuba players, and Chem E majors.  Redshirts are only granted for the rarest of circumstances.  Just commit to 5 years public service and 3 years in the reserves upon graduation for your free books, tuition, room and board, and stipend.

Try not to wash out after the start of your junior year.

Edited November 7, 2022 by 98lberEating2Lunches

[Viratas]

As a parent of a kid (and not an academic standout) who has gone through college and played a sport while in college, if it takes you more than four years to graduate, you are not trying. Most kids are getting at least a year of college credits while in HS if not two. Hell, that is even in FL. If these kids can do it, any kid should be able to.

[98lberEating2Lunches]

5 minutes ago, Viratas said:

if it takes you more than four years to graduate, you are not trying

I agree that if everything goes smoothly and its their priority then the average student should be able to graduate in 4 years.  However, extenuating circumstances arise (e.g., severe illness, death of financial supporter) and majors do change midstream within both the general student population and that of student athletes.

I  am not sure how being hypothetucally able to graduate in four years provides justification to warrant elimination of redshirts.  But maybe, there was no intended connection.

Maybe if I understood how the elimination of redshirts would be in the best interest of student athletes or NCAA member institutions then I might appreciate the merits of the OP's proposal.

[bnwtwg]

14 minutes ago, Viratas said:

As a parent of a kid (and not an academic standout) who has gone through college and played a sport while in college, if it takes you more than four years to graduate, you are not trying. Most kids are getting at least a year of college credits while in HS if not two. Hell, that is even in FL. If these kids can do it, any kid should be able to.

Sometimes people change their major and that requires more time based on the current structure of higher education. I was student teaching and realized that wasn't my career path, and not all credits I had earned to that point counted towards my much more generic business degree. Also, not every kid takes a freshman year's worth of AP classes, much less "most" - that is a patently absurd take.

[Viratas]

46 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Sometimes people change their major and that requires more time based on the current structure of higher education. I was student teaching and realized that wasn't my career path, and not all credits I had earned to that point counted towards my much more generic business degree. Also, not every kid takes a freshman year's worth of AP classes, much less "most" - that is a patently absurd take.

I have been away far too long and forgot that people like to cling to one word in a comment and then call you an idiot or say something like Absurd. Because I am sure your direct experiences are the same as mine. Many kids coming out of HS who are also interested in playing a college sport have some level of post-secondary courses. Kids now realize the importance of having good grades, unlike when I was coming out. Also, many parents understand that it can also save them money. So to be clear and not "Absurd," based on the athletes my daughter played with, based on all the coaches I know (in numerous sports), many student-athletes are taking advantage of post-secondary opportunities.

Furthermore, AP classes are the only way an HS Student can get college credit. There are several ways students can obtain those credits without taking any AP classes. But yes, my opinion is clearly "Absurd." At least I am good at something. Thank you for setting me on the correct path. 

[bnwtwg]

3 minutes ago, Viratas said:

I have been away far too long and forgot that people like to cling to one word in a comment and then call you an idiot or say something like Absurd. Because I am sure your direct experiences are the same as mine. Many kids coming out of HS who are also interested in playing a college sport have some level of post-secondary courses. Kids now realize the importance of having good grades, unlike when I was coming out. Also, many parents understand that it can also save them money. So to be clear and not "Absurd," based on the athletes my daughter played with, based on all the coaches I know (in numerous sports), many student-athletes are taking advantage of post-secondary opportunities.

Furthermore, AP classes are the only way an HS Student can get college credit. There are several ways students can obtain those credits without taking any AP classes. But yes, my opinion is clearly "Absurd." At least I am good at something. Thank you for setting me on the correct path. 

You came out guns blazing and said "Most kids are getting at least a year of college credits while in HS if not two." If that were the case then shouldn't most college students only spend two years obtaining their bachelors degree? That was my absurdist take and I find my premise valid.

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

4 minutes ago, Viratas said:

I have been away far too long and forgot that people like to cling to one word in a comment and then call you an idiot or say something like Absurd. Because I am sure your direct experiences are the same as mine. Many kids coming out of HS who are also interested in playing a college sport have some level of post-secondary courses. Kids now realize the importance of having good grades, unlike when I was coming out. Also, many parents understand that it can also save them money. So to be clear and not "Absurd," based on the athletes my daughter played with, based on all the coaches I know (in numerous sports), many student-athletes are taking advantage of post-secondary opportunities.

Furthermore, AP classes are the only way an HS Student can get college credit. There are several ways students can obtain those credits without taking any AP classes. But yes, my opinion is clearly "Absurd." At least I am good at something. Thank you for setting me on the correct path. 

You know what else is absurd? The idea that they can keep dumping bodies off the same curve in the road and no one will notice a pile of bodies laying at the bottom of the cliff and begin to investigate. We have a mass murderer as our protagonist, for god's sake.

[1032004]

1 hour ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

I agree that if everything goes smoothly and its their priority then the average student should be able to graduate in 4 years.  However, extenuating circumstances arise (e.g., severe illness, death of financial supporter) and majors do change midstream within both the general student population and that of student athletes.

I  am not sure how being hypothetucally able to graduate in four years provides justification to warrant elimination of redshirts.  But maybe, there was no intended connection.

Maybe if I understood how the elimination of redshirts would be in the best interest of student athletes or NCAA member institutions then I might appreciate the merits of the OP's proposal.

I think the main argument in that regard from @Dark Energy was essentially that for every 4 athletes that receive a full scholarship for 5 years, that could be converted to 5 athletes getting a full scholarship for 4 years.

I guess that would be a benefit, but IMO does not outweigh the current benefits of redshirting.

I also found it weird that he apparently has no issue with grayshirting.  Grayshirting is more of gaming the system to me and for the most part is only an option for those that can afford it.  And if redshirting were eliminated you can be sure that more coaches will encourage grayshirting which would not be a positive IMO.

[ionel]

2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

After completing an exhaustive study of students who were once on the dole in my house (sample size=4), I have conclusively determined that half of all students take more than four years to graduate.

Given the parent is on a Rocket Scientists salary I'm assuming the extra two (or more) years of tuition was "no problem."

[Viratas]

34 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

You came out guns blazing and said "Most kids are getting at least a year of college credits while in HS if not two." If that were the case then shouldn't most college students only spend two years obtaining their bachelors degree? That was my absurdist take and I find my premise valid.

 

No guns blazing, sorry, was just my opinion, based on my experience. I am glad you are confident in your unsolicited comment. I stand by what I said, I know I am a simpleton with very little knowledge, but sometimes even us plebes have opinions. I will also make sure I like your comment so to help further boost your confidence. I will strive to do better sir.

[Viratas]

36 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I think the main argument in that regard from @Dark Energy was essentially that for every 4 athletes that receive a full scholarship for 5 years, that could be converted to 5 athletes getting a full scholarship for 4 years.

I guess that would be a benefit, but IMO does not outweigh the current benefits of redshirting.

I also found it weird that he apparently has no issue with grayshirting.  Grayshirting is more of gaming the system to me and for the most part is only an option for those that can afford it.  And if redshirting were eliminated you can be sure that more coaches will encourage grayshirting which would not be a positive IMO.

I see what you are saying. A fully funded wrestling team has 9.9 per season. If you had no redshirts, you might have a smaller roster, but doubtful (assuming there was no longer any redshirting). So if with redshirts you have 20, you divide up your 9.9 how you see fit. If you no longer can redshirt, you probably still carry 20, thus in the same place. If you have no redshirts and hold 15, sure, more money is now available. The point being, AND I COULD BE WRONG (I want to make that super duper clear for the more sensitive types), is that having or not having a redshirt most likely has no impact on scholarships. 

[ionel]

51 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

You know what else is absurd? The idea that they can keep dumping bodies off the same curve in the road and no one will notice a pile of bodies laying at the bottom of the cliff and begin to investigate. We have a mass murderer as our protagonist, for god's sake.

Its amazing a sheriff never drove past that curve and noticed all the buzzards.  

[Viratas]

18 minutes ago, Viratas said:

No guns blazing, sorry, was just my opinion, based on my experience. I am glad you are confident in your unsolicited comment. I stand by what I said, I know I am a simpleton with very little knowledge, but sometimes even us plebes have opinions. I will also make sure I like your comment so to help further boost your confidence. I will strive to do better sir.

According to the state of Indiana (from 2018) 64% of 2018 high school graduates earned AP, dual credit or both. It may be absurd to think that has went up, but I find it reasonable to think it has. 

I mean it is more than half

[Viratas]

55 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

You know what else is absurd? The idea that they can keep dumping bodies off the same curve in the road and no one will notice a pile of bodies laying at the bottom of the cliff and begin to investigate. We have a mass murderer as our protagonist, for god's sake.

There is like two lines that explains why they never find the bodies. "nobody lives within 100 miles, so no one ever thinks to lean over the edge." Also, it's in Wyoming so it's their problem.

[mspart]

I graduated in 5 years, but did an engineering major that required more than the traditional amount of credits plus I double majored in Spanish.   So I was dawdling and didn't do sports.   But my foray into Spanish set me back a bit.

I also did a Masters Degree in Engineering that was more because i was not done playing flag football, Ultimate Frisbee, softball, or wrestling - all intramural.   I had a great time with the Master's degree but actually stayed because I was not done playing.   Got a good job at the end and found my wife also so it was a good decision. 

mspart

[1032004]

4 hours ago, ionel said:

let's see the data, if a majority should be easy to find the data.  Most all undergrad programs are designed to be completed in 4 years (could be a couple exceptions like Architecture).  @Wrestleknownothing is now rocket scientists status and we know very good with data, maybe he can help put together some tables. 

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=569
 

Looks like as of 2015-2016, 56% took longer than 4 years, so he’s technically correct.

But that does appear to be driven by older students.  “Only” 35% of students 23 or younger took longer than 4 years.  But I guess guys like Daton Fix (could be wrong) probably would have been 23 even if they graduated in 4 years

[MPhillips]

Why is RSing bad? What are the reasons it's bad? Beside the fact that some folks just disagree or don't like it...

[ionel]

2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=569
 

Looks like as of 2015-2016, 56% took longer than 4 years, so he’s technically correct.

But that does appear to be driven by older students.  “Only” 35% of students 23 or younger took longer than 4 years.  But I guess guys like Daton Fix (could be wrong) probably would have been 23 even if they graduated in 4 years

Well for this discussion we should be using the 23 and younger any prob not including athletes.  Athletes tend to take longer just because they can & generally someone else paying the bill.  The older are folks that might have withdrawn & come back, working a part to full time job not taking a full load of classes.  The 45 months shows that it can be done by majority of students.  But sure, a lot of ways to look at the data. 

[1032004]

10 minutes ago, ionel said:

Well for this discussion we should be using the 23 and younger any prob not including athletes.  Athletes tend to take longer just because they can & generally someone else paying the bill.  The older are folks that might have withdrawn & come back, working a part to full time job not taking a full load of classes.  The 45 months shows that it can be done by majority of students.  But sure, a lot of ways to look at the data. 

I’m sure D1 athletes are a small fraction of the number, so I think even the 35% is pretty significant. 

[boconnell]

10 minutes ago, ionel said:

Well for this discussion we should be using the 23 and younger any prob not including athletes.  Athletes tend to take longer just because they can & generally someone else paying the bill.  The older are folks that might have withdrawn & come back, working a part to full time job not taking a full load of classes.  The 45 months shows that it can be done by majority of students.  But sure, a lot of ways to look at the data. 

Is there a reason older students wouldn't count when considering whether most take more than 4 years?  The comment I responded to said it was against the mission of the school for kids to RS and take 5 years to graduate.  Is it against the spirit of the school for older students to go to college? 

Most students take more than 4 years.  There is no reason why an athlete going to school for 5 years is universally bad.

Edited November 7, 2022 by boconnell

[mspart]

5 years is not too long to graduate.   If I'm not footing the bill that is. 

mspart

[ionel]

1 hour ago, MPhillips said:

Why is RSing bad? What are the reasons it's bad? Beside the fact that some folks just disagree or don't like it...

Why is it good?

I mean besides the fact that some folks just disagree or like it ...

Edited November 7, 2022 by ionel