35 countries demand ban of Russia at the 2024 Olympics

[GreatWhiteNorth]

5 hours ago, Nailbender said:

I quit arguing the point because I realized I didn't want to go to bat for every nation that has or has not been allowed to participate. I got caught up in a conversation I didn't want to be in, just because I felt @GreatWhiteNorth's reasoning was a little too black and white. Which also should be (and is) just fine by me.

See what I did there?

I wouldn't describe it as all that B&W. Like a lot of things life throws our way, it's complicated.

Imagine having a guy join your wrestling team who just last week snuck into your cousins' house, beat them up, and took their stuff. That's kind of how I feel about the situation.

(Pipe down if you want to argue that it isn't a good analogy. It isn't, I know. But it does help illustrate how "I" feel about the topic - which is exactly my point.)

None of this makes anybody on the wrestling team or coaches of the wrestling team an angel, nor any of the cousins. Arguing that they make mistakes, too is just more of the all too common "what-about-ism" that leads nowhere.

[scourge165]

3 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

I wouldn't describe it as all that B&W. Like a lot of things life throws our way, it's complicated.

Imagine having a guy join your wrestling team who just last week snuck into your cousins' house, beat them up, and took their stuff. That's kind of how I feel about the situation.

(Pipe down if you want to argue that it isn't a good analogy. It isn't, I know. But it does help illustrate how "I" feel about the topic - which is exactly my point.)

None of this makes anybody on the wrestling team or coaches of the wrestling team an angel, nor any of the cousins. Arguing that they make mistakes, too is just more of the all too common "what-about-ism" that leads nowhere.

You're setting precedents and determining who should be allowed to compete. I think kicking Russia out while China engaging in ethnic cleansing with the Uyghurs is more than a "whataboutism," it's called a standard.

Is one worse because they're fighting back while the other has no opportunity to do so? Because the US and Nato isn't supplying them tens and tens of billions of dollars for ammunition and all types of weapons. 

Yes, "whataboutism" is a valid response when you say who should and shouldn't be allowed to participate basaed upon their Nations actions.

 

In fact, seems like ignoring one atrocity in the name of whataboutism is just puts the line in an even more ambiguous place. What have the Dagestani's done to be banned from the Olympic other than kinda being part of Russia?

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 3/6/2023 at 12:39 AM, scourge165 said:

I cannot. It's pretty wild. It's a short list of brothers who'd have won World or Olympic Titles if not for FAMILY members blocking them!

Saitiev? Adam won an Olympic title the one year Buvaisar lost to Slay and had a DNP(would have been allowed to Wrestle back to 3rd had the original Gold medalist popped right away)and the year or two prior he let Adam Wrestle 76KG at the WC.

It's crazy enough that Saitiev couldn't MAKE the Russian team once or twice(I think twice) because he got knocked off by a countryman. Likely being the 2nd best in the world for a decade+ to your own brother is insane.

I wonder if Terry Brands wouldn't have had the same Collegiate and Olympic success if he didn't have to cut as much weight? 26-4 as a Freshmen and gets beat out while Tom takes 4th. Then loses to Cross while Tom wins a Gold. As close to an American version of as I can think of.

 

Completely unrelated to the topic, but I also think Terry's actual development took longer.  I once heard him say that Tom wrestled almost entirely with a left lead, whereas Terry wrestled both.  Tom was primarily single to your right leg and high crotch to your left.  Terry said it took him an extra year or so to be really good, because he was trying to perfect both shots to both sides.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

19 hours ago, scourge165 said:

You're setting precedents and determining who should be allowed to compete. I think kicking Russia out while China engaging in ethnic cleansing with the Uyghurs is more than a "whataboutism," it's called a standard.

Is one worse because they're fighting back while the other has no opportunity to do so? Because the US and Nato isn't supplying them tens and tens of billions of dollars for ammunition and all types of weapons. 

Yes, "whataboutism" is a valid response when you say who should and shouldn't be allowed to participate basaed upon their Nations actions.

 

In fact, seems like ignoring one atrocity in the name of whataboutism is just puts the line in an even more ambiguous place. What have the Dagestani's done to be banned from the Olympic other than kinda being part of Russia?

Not at all.

I'm setting neither precedent nor standards. I'm simply saying that I don't think Russia should be allowed to participate.

What about China? What about South Africa? What about other examples over the years? ... you're engaging in "whataboutism". I'm not. 

The scope of my discussion is Russia and the upcoming Olympics.

 

[Mike Parrish]

On 3/10/2023 at 7:14 PM, GreatWhiteNorth said:

I wouldn't describe it as all that B&W. Like a lot of things life throws our way, it's complicated.

Imagine having a guy join your wrestling team who just last week snuck into your cousins' house, beat them up, and took their stuff. That's kind of how I feel about the situation.

(Pipe down if you want to argue that it isn't a good analogy. It isn't, I know. But it does help illustrate how "I" feel about the topic - which is exactly my point.)

None of this makes anybody on the wrestling team or coaches of the wrestling team an angel, nor any of the cousins. Arguing that they make mistakes, too is just more of the all too common "what-about-ism" that leads nowhere.

I'd still cut them from the team.
And do everything I could to prevent a clean transfer.

[scourge165]

2 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Not at all.

I'm setting neither precedent nor standards. I'm simply saying that I don't think Russia should be allowed to participate.

What about China? What about South Africa? What about other examples over the years? ... you're engaging in "whataboutism". I'm not. 

The scope of my discussion is Russia and the upcoming Olympics.

 

Yeah...I said as much. I thought pretty clearly. I AM saying, "what about China." Because they're sending millions of people who belong to one ethnic group to re-education camps and killing...who knows how many.

-Because if you're NOT comparing which countries are left out of the Olympics due to the atrocities they're committing, you're kinda being a hypocrite. 

I'm just wasn't using the term because this isn't Twitter, but if you want to call it "whataboutism," I'm fine with that. What about what Russia has done makes it so much worse in terms of foreign policy than what China is doing?

Is ethnic cleansing somehow acceptable but the War in Ukraine not? THAT is where the line in the sand is? 

 

How about China THREATENING to invade Taiwan? How much more do they need to be un-worthy? So again, call it whataboutism, I call it some measure of consistency. SOME standard that we adhere to....

[LJB]

14 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Not at all.

I'm setting neither precedent nor standards. I'm simply saying that I don't think Russia should be allowed to participate.

What about China? What about South Africa? What about other examples over the years? ... you're engaging in "whataboutism". I'm not. 

The scope of my discussion is Russia and the upcoming Olympics.

 

[GreatWhiteNorth]

20 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Yeah...I said as much. I thought pretty clearly. I AM saying, "what about China." Because they're sending millions of people who belong to one ethnic group to re-education camps and killing...who knows how many.

-Because if you're NOT comparing which countries are left out of the Olympics due to the atrocities they're committing, you're kinda being a hypocrite. 

I'm just wasn't using the term because this isn't Twitter, but if you want to call it "whataboutism," I'm fine with that. What about what Russia has done makes it so much worse in terms of foreign policy than what China is doing?

Is ethnic cleansing somehow acceptable but the War in Ukraine not? THAT is where the line in the sand is? 

 

How about China THREATENING to invade Taiwan? How much more do they need to be un-worthy? So again, call it whataboutism, I call it some measure of consistency. SOME standard that we adhere to....

We are missing each other. Not that we necessarily disagree, just that we aren't focused on the same things.

• Russia - should be rejected, clear and simple, from the Olympic Games. Their demonstrated actions are inexcusable.
• China - THREATENING to invade Taiwan. Yes, they are. But until they do, it isn't an action - it's a threat.

As far as the treatment of Uigars in China, is it ethnic cleansing? I don't know. Facts are hard to come by when events are taking place in China. I don't pretend to know more than I do.

So many feel the need for a 'standard' or 'line' that we can use to distinguish between B&W.  Unfortunately, most of world's problems are gray. Seeking a 'line' is a fool's errand.

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by GreatWhiteNorth

[Cherkov]

59 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

We are missing each other. Not that we necessarily disagree, just that we aren't focused on the same things.

• Russia - should be rejected, clear and simple, from the Olympic Games. Their demonstrated actions are inexcusable.
• China - THREATENING to invade Taiwan. Yes, they are. But until they do, it isn't an action - it's a threat.

As far as the treatment of Uigars in China, is it ethnic cleansing? I don't know. Facts are hard to come by when events are taking place in China. I don't pretend to know more than I do.

So many feel the need for a 'standard' or 'line' that we can use to distinguish between B&W.  Unfortunately, most of world's problems are gray. Seeking a 'line' is a fool's errand.

 

 

 

So inexcusable that the Coalition of the Willing got away with it and kept their olympics medals while finding war across land masses and oceans. 

Was the rape of the Armenian female soldier excusable to you? Or just the right having the right friends makes wars just. 

[GreatWhiteNorth]

1 minute ago, Cherkov said:

So inexcusable that the Coalition of the Willing got away with it and kept their olympics medals while finding war across land masses and oceans. 

Got away with what? What's your point? 

5 minutes ago, Cherkov said:

Was the rape of the Armenian female soldier excusable to you?

Rape is never excusable. 

6 minutes ago, Cherkov said:

Or just the right having the right friends makes wars just. 

If you'd like to engage in a serious conversation, you'll need to do better than this.

[scourge165]

9 hours ago, Cherkov said:

So inexcusable that the Coalition of the Willing got away with it and kept their olympics medals while finding war across land masses and oceans. 

Was the rape of the Armenian female soldier excusable to you? Or just the right having the right friends makes wars just. 

And that's being celebrated Nation Wide.

The depravity of that alone( nevermind the other soldiers they show mutilated)...it is horrific. 

[scourge165]

9 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

If you'd like to engage in a serious conversation, you'll need to do better than this.

Why? He's asking why you're not calling for Azerbaijan from being banned. Pretty legitimate question as they committed horrible atrocities, but they've remained as most favored Nation Status as they could prove a useful ally vs Russia or Iran or just in that region. 

Pretty apples to apples. I'm not sure what he didn't do well enough there and I don't know what's more serious?

[Bigbrog]

Like I said before, I think each situation and country needs to be evaluated by itself and not compared to any other county and situation when making a decision about banning from the Olympics.  It is very complicated and there are so many factors involved (intent, culture, societal norms, invading a country unprovoked, state sanctioned doping, etc.).  Point is, I don't think you can say, well you banned that country for XYZ so you should ban this country for ABC.

[mspart]

1 hour ago, Bigbrog said:

Like I said before, I think each situation and country needs to be evaluated by itself and not compared to any other county and situation when making a decision about banning from the Olympics.  It is very complicated and there are so many factors involved (intent, culture, societal norms, invading a country unprovoked, state sanctioned doping, etc.).  Point is, I don't think you can say, well you banned that country for XYZ so you should ban this country for ABC.

They would be banning the US because of ABC?  Good thing we have CBS and NBC to boot.  I never thought ABC was all that bad!

mspart

[scourge165]

4 hours ago, Bigbrog said:

Like I said before, I think each situation and country needs to be evaluated by itself and not compared to any other county and situation when making a decision about banning from the Olympics.  It is very complicated and there are so many factors involved (intent, culture, societal norms, invading a country unprovoked, state sanctioned doping, etc.).  Point is, I don't think you can say, well you banned that country for XYZ so you should ban this country for ABC.

I'm sorry, I just can't wrap my head around that. 

The argument was made if you attack another Country, you shouldn't be allowed in the Country. And if it IS ok in your culture and your celebrated for raping and then desecrating a young women's dead body while you post it online and your special forces become goddamn hero's because of it, maybe they're just that fvcked up and they shouldn't be allowed in irrespective of their culture, societal norms...or intent.

It's just so incredibly random what we actually get outraged over and...entirely inconsistent. 

[mspart]

I missed the news on this event.   Can someone please recap for me?  Time, place, rapists, victim etc.

mspart

[mspart]

The Serbian National that killed the arch duke and started WWI is considered a national hero in Serbia.   Perhaps Serbia should give up its aspirations of Olympic-hood.  

I found this out while speaking with a few Serbs a year or so before the Balkans War.   It was still Yugoslavia at the time.   They were hating on Croatians at the time for being war mongering during WWII.   I asked if it wasn't a Serbian that killed the arch duke starting WWI?  They heralded the guy, he was a national hero and stuff.   I couldn't believe it, they were applauding the guy that started WWI.  These were just average guys there in Belgrade.  Wrongly or Rightly, I assumed this was the thought of most Serbs. 

mspart

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, mspart said:

I missed the news on this event.   Can someone please recap for me?  Time, place, rapists, victim etc.

mspart

If you look further, don't look for the video. I still can't get that image out of my head...or images.  

It'd be like if our Seals did this and they were celebrated for it.

https://asbarez.com/azerbaijani-atrocities-including-mutilation-of-female-soldier-detailed-to-foreign-diplomats/

[mspart]

Scourge,  Thank you for providing the link.  I wonder why I hadn't heard of this?   This did not make general news here did it?   I don't remember any of this. 

Those from Azerbaijan that did this are monsters and need to be inflicted with international law or national law.   I did not see that these guys are heroes for this, but that does not speak well of the country in general.   Blood thirsty animals. 

mspart

Edited March 13, 2023 by mspart

[scourge165]

23 minutes ago, mspart said:

Scourge,  Thank you for providing the link.  I wonder why I hadn't heard of this?   This did not make general news here did it?   I don't remember any of this. 

Those from Azerbaijan that did this are monsters and need to be inflicted with international law or national law.   I did not see that these guys are heroes for this, but that does not speak well of the country in general.   Blood thirsty animals. 

mspart

I don't know either. Again, just repeating what I have read, but they seem to be an important ally vs Russia, Iran, possibly China according for the US. The US stepped in here and kinda slapped their wrists, but it was kept quiet. No Armenian flags on Twitter, no outrage. Just came and went and probably because it just wasn't interesting enough for most US Citizens. 

 If @Cherkov hadn't mentioned it, I probably wouldn't have mentioned it because it seems like it was so much longer ago.

 

[Mike Parrish]

5 hours ago, mspart said:

The Serbian National that killed the arch duke and started WWI is considered a national hero in Serbia.   Perhaps Serbia should give up its aspirations of Olympic-hood.  

I found this out while speaking with a few Serbs a year or so before the Balkans War.   It was still Yugoslavia at the time.   They were hating on Croatians at the time for being war mongering during WWII.   I asked if it wasn't a Serbian that killed the arch duke starting WWI?  They heralded the guy, he was a national hero and stuff.   I couldn't believe it, they were applauding the guy that started WWI.  These were just average guys there in Belgrade.  Wrongly or Rightly, I assumed this was the thought of most Serbs. 

mspart

I noticed a strong generational rift.

The younger people seem to want to be a part of Europe.
The older people seemed to bear their grievances pretty openly.

Reminded me of Romanian views towards the Turks when I did business there.

[Mike Parrish]

https://cepa.org/article/morality-shouldnt-get-in-the-way-russias-genocidal-state-media/

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/13/us/politics/ron-desantis-ukraine-tucker-carlson.html

Edited March 14, 2023 by Mike Parrish

[GreatWhiteNorth]

14 hours ago, scourge165 said:

And that's being celebrated Nation Wide.

The depravity of that alone (nevermind the other soldiers they show mutilated)...it is horrific. 

"Nation Wide." Hmmm... not in my nation. I've never seen it celebrated here.

I know nothing of it. Perhaps you are being manipulated?

[GreatWhiteNorth]

14 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Why? He's asking why you're not calling for Azerbaijan from being banned. Pretty legitimate question as they committed horrible atrocities, but they've remained as most favored Nation Status as they could prove a useful ally vs Russia or Iran or just in that region. 

Pretty apples to apples. I'm not sure what he didn't do well enough there and I don't know what's more serious?

I asked that he do better, because it was vague.

What he posted, and what you posted here are two very different things. Not sure what to make of it. Now it's moved past vague and to inconsistent. Fruitful conversation will be difficult when it starts with vague and inconsistent comments.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

8 hours ago, scourge165 said:

I'm sorry, I just can't wrap my head around that. 

The argument was made if you attack another Country, you shouldn't be allowed in the Country. And if it IS ok in your culture and your celebrated for raping and then desecrating a young women's dead body while you post it online and your special forces become goddamn hero's because of it, maybe they're just that fvcked up and they shouldn't be allowed in irrespective of their culture, societal norms...or intent.

It's just so incredibly random what we actually get outraged over and...entirely inconsistent. 

That was not "the argument" being made by anyone here. That was you alone posting that.

And then you've added the question of our culture being OK with "rape"? With no factual basis.

Your attempts here are weak. You've lost any credibility you may have started to earn.