dragit Posted July 10 Posted July 10 23 hours ago, russelscout said: You’ve gotta remember, LJB’s kids are Greco guys, and he takes a ton of pride in that. Hell, I’ve seen him compare himself to Philip II of Macedon…. Yes, really. What he doesn’t realize is that his entire persona on this site is a good example of the difference between Greco and Free. Could you imagine if Dake or Lee’s parents were on here acting like that? They never would because it would be a bad look, but for Greco, no one cares. Some people can’t handle the truth. You continue to make the points both much better and much more efficiently than me, this time with a perfect analogy.
dragit Posted July 10 Posted July 10 23 hours ago, LJB said: Do you know any of the senior Greco guys or not? I do not, like most people who follow wrestling. I don't follow Greco at all, like most people who follow wrestling. Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand that this doesn't help your argument at all. Due to this inane message board conversation, though, I for the first time in my life other than watching the Blatnick and Gardner gold medal matches, paid some attention to Greco and ran a google search to see how the U.S. has fared in the sport. Good Lord: One (1) (the number between zero and two) gold medal by the U.S. in Olympic history in a year when the actual good Greco countries wrestled. I had no idea it was so bad. You're sitting here ripping people in thread after thread for their ignorance of how amazing Greco is in the U.S. and how it's just getting the shaft when we have zero history of success to build on? But Alex Dieringer once told you in a verbal conversation that he thought Greco was great, so you've got the ultimate trump card. Here's an analogy based on current events. What are the two big sporting events right now? World Cup and Wimbledon. The U.S. sucks at soccer. Why? Simple: Its best athletes don't play soccer. They play the major sports, which pay a lot more money and are a lot more enjoyable because, you know, you can use your hands. In other parts of the world, the best athletes play soccer because that's where the money and fan interest is. We aren't good at Greco because our best wrestlers don't participate in Greco just like we aren't good at soccer because our best athletes don't play soccer. Which is why most wrestling fans don't follow Greco and why soccer lags way behind the major sports in fan following in our country. Just watch the tennis. Novak Djokovic is probably the best athlete in the world, maybe tied with a couple of soccer guys (though they don't do a fraction of what he does in a match). Alcaraz, Nadal before him, Auger-Aliasime -- athleticism coming out of their eyeballs. The U.S. men can't compete at their level, and you can tell by the naked eye that it's because they don't have the athleticism that those foreign tennis players --and Bobby Witt Jr. and Pete Crow Armstrong and Patrick Mahomes and Saquon Barkley and Lebron James -- have. The only top U.S. male tennis player who is a great athlete is Ben Shelton, who plays because his dad was a pro and is a coach. But he played a lot of football when he was younger, specialized too late, and won't ever be able to match the top foreigners. We haven't had top athletes with top level speed and strength and coordination compete in mens tennis since Sampras and Agassi. U.S. women do very well at tennis, though, because great U.S. women athletes like Coco Gauff (amazing speed, conditioning, and competitive spirit) play tennis, because there isn't any money in the major sports for women. Why did Richard Williams have his uber athletic daughters play tennis not basketball or something else? Because that's where the money is for women. Get serious. This isn't complicated. No one here has animus toward Greco, and I 100% think it's great that kids who do it have such devotion and love for a grueling and noble sport. But you're just baiting me into a simple google search and laying out some basic facts.
LJB Posted July 10 Posted July 10 Wow… impressive diatribe, nerd… still ignores the extraordinarily ignorant comment you made… but… anonymous forum nerd is gonna anonymous forum nerd… every… single… time… 1
MPhillips Posted July 10 Posted July 10 7 hours ago, dragit said: Alcaraz, Nadal before him, Auger-Aliasime -- athleticism coming out of their eyeballs. Oh boy... .
DirtyPolitics Posted July 10 Posted July 10 LJB -- Ignorance is not necessarily an insult, it actually reinforces the point of the whole topic. Ignorance means uneducated on a topic and that is a choice - and a choice that an overwhelming majority of wrestling fans in the US have made for a variety of reasons. Something can be extraordinarily hard and competitive and have no following. That doesn't mean it is at the fault of the non-followers.
LJB Posted July 10 Posted July 10 21 minutes ago, DirtyPolitics said: LJB -- Ignorance is not necessarily an insult, it actually reinforces the point of the whole topic. Ignorance means uneducated on a topic and that is a choice - and a choice that an overwhelming majority of wrestling fans in the US have made for a variety of reasons. Something can be extraordinarily hard and competitive and have no following. That doesn't mean it is at the fault of the non-followers. of course ignorance isn't an insult, dummy... (dummy is an insult and and is extremely apt here) you made an incredibly ignorant comment earlier and still have not once owned up to it nor even acknowledged it... you don't like greco? fine... i would advise continuing to ignore it and instead of ignorant comments on a message board while hiding behind a screen name you just move on to a different thread...
LJB Posted July 10 Posted July 10 @DirtyPolitics i just saw the D and did not pay enough attention to who was replying... apologies...
The Kid Posted July 12 Posted July 12 On 7/9/2026 at 11:57 PM, dragit said: I do not, like most people who follow wrestling. I don't follow Greco at all, like most people who follow wrestling. Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand that this doesn't help your argument at all. Due to this inane message board conversation, though, I for the first time in my life other than watching the Blatnick and Gardner gold medal matches, paid some attention to Greco and ran a google search to see how the U.S. has fared in the sport. Good Lord: One (1) (the number between zero and two) gold medal by the U.S. in Olympic history in a year when the actual good Greco countries wrestled. I had no idea it was so bad. You're sitting here ripping people in thread after thread for their ignorance of how amazing Greco is in the U.S. and how it's just getting the shaft when we have zero history of success to build on? But Alex Dieringer once told you in a verbal conversation that he thought Greco was great, so you've got the ultimate trump card. Here's an analogy based on current events. What are the two big sporting events right now? World Cup and Wimbledon. The U.S. sucks at soccer. Why? Simple: Its best athletes don't play soccer. They play the major sports, which pay a lot more money and are a lot more enjoyable because, you know, you can use your hands. In other parts of the world, the best athletes play soccer because that's where the money and fan interest is. We aren't good at Greco because our best wrestlers don't participate in Greco just like we aren't good at soccer because our best athletes don't play soccer. Which is why most wrestling fans don't follow Greco and why soccer lags way behind the major sports in fan following in our country. Just watch the tennis. Novak Djokovic is probably the best athlete in the world, maybe tied with a couple of soccer guys (though they don't do a fraction of what he does in a match). Alcaraz, Nadal before him, Auger-Aliasime -- athleticism coming out of their eyeballs. The U.S. men can't compete at their level, and you can tell by the naked eye that it's because they don't have the athleticism that those foreign tennis players --and Bobby Witt Jr. and Pete Crow Armstrong and Patrick Mahomes and Saquon Barkley and Lebron James -- have. The only top U.S. male tennis player who is a great athlete is Ben Shelton, who plays because his dad was a pro and is a coach. But he played a lot of football when he was younger, specialized too late, and won't ever be able to match the top foreigners. We haven't had top athletes with top level speed and strength and coordination compete in mens tennis since Sampras and Agassi. U.S. women do very well at tennis, though, because great U.S. women athletes like Coco Gauff (amazing speed, conditioning, and competitive spirit) play tennis, because there isn't any money in the major sports for women. Why did Richard Williams have his uber athletic daughters play tennis not basketball or something else? Because that's where the money is for women. Get serious. This isn't complicated. No one here has animus toward Greco, and I 100% think it's great that kids who do it have such devotion and love for a grueling and noble sport. But you're just baiting me into a simple google search and laying out some basic facts. I would argue that American soccer players are great athletes, just not great soccer players. Thats the problem with soccer and greco. It's not that our best athletes don't play those sports, it's that we aren't perfecting the technique. It's not because our greco wrestlers aren't athletic, their just not as skilled. Technique and strategy are very, very important in high level greco wrestling and soccer ball. Yes, it helps that if everyone plays the sport. But our lack of success isn't because our athletes horrible. They're just not as a skilled or seasoned imo.
dragit Posted July 12 Posted July 12 1 hour ago, The Kid said: I would argue that American soccer players are great athletes, just not great soccer players. Thats the problem with soccer and greco. It's not that our best athletes don't play those sports, it's that we aren't perfecting the technique. It's not because our greco wrestlers aren't athletic, their just not as skilled. Technique and strategy are very, very important in high level greco wrestling and soccer ball. Yes, it helps that if everyone plays the sport. But our lack of success isn't because our athletes horrible. They're just not as a skilled or seasoned imo. I don't think our athletes in soccer (or Greco) are horrible or anywhere near that. They're definitely outstanding. Just not as good as the very best, who are playing other sports because the incentives line up that way. Because soccer isn't as prominent and there aren't big money opportunities in the U.S., the best American athletes play shortstop and center field like Bobby Witt and Pete Crow Armstrong, and wide receiver and cornerback like Tyreek Hill and Jalen Ramsey. Those positions are very much skill positions, and my thesis is that if guys in the U.S. with that kind of athleticism were incentivized to play soccer since they were small, they'd pick up soccer skills and be the best in that sport.
Sulyvahn Posted July 12 Posted July 12 On 7/9/2026 at 10:57 PM, dragit said: I do not, like most people who follow wrestling. I don't follow Greco at all, like most people who follow wrestling. Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand that this doesn't help your argument at all. Due to this inane message board conversation, though, I for the first time in my life other than watching the Blatnick and Gardner gold medal matches, paid some attention to Greco and ran a google search to see how the U.S. has fared in the sport. Good Lord: One (1) (the number between zero and two) gold medal by the U.S. in Olympic history in a year when the actual good Greco countries wrestled. I had no idea it was so bad. You're sitting here ripping people in thread after thread for their ignorance of how amazing Greco is in the U.S. and how it's just getting the shaft when we have zero history of success to build on? But Alex Dieringer once told you in a verbal conversation that he thought Greco was great, so you've got the ultimate trump card. Here's an analogy based on current events. What are the two big sporting events right now? World Cup and Wimbledon. The U.S. sucks at soccer. Why? Simple: Its best athletes don't play soccer. They play the major sports, which pay a lot more money and are a lot more enjoyable because, you know, you can use your hands. In other parts of the world, the best athletes play soccer because that's where the money and fan interest is. We aren't good at Greco because our best wrestlers don't participate in Greco just like we aren't good at soccer because our best athletes don't play soccer. Which is why most wrestling fans don't follow Greco and why soccer lags way behind the major sports in fan following in our country. Just watch the tennis. Novak Djokovic is probably the best athlete in the world, maybe tied with a couple of soccer guys (though they don't do a fraction of what he does in a match). Alcaraz, Nadal before him, Auger-Aliasime -- athleticism coming out of their eyeballs. The U.S. men can't compete at their level, and you can tell by the naked eye that it's because they don't have the athleticism that those foreign tennis players --and Bobby Witt Jr. and Pete Crow Armstrong and Patrick Mahomes and Saquon Barkley and Lebron James -- have. The only top U.S. male tennis player who is a great athlete is Ben Shelton, who plays because his dad was a pro and is a coach. But he played a lot of football when he was younger, specialized too late, and won't ever be able to match the top foreigners. We haven't had top athletes with top level speed and strength and coordination compete in mens tennis since Sampras and Agassi. U.S. women do very well at tennis, though, because great U.S. women athletes like Coco Gauff (amazing speed, conditioning, and competitive spirit) play tennis, because there isn't any money in the major sports for women. Why did Richard Williams have his uber athletic daughters play tennis not basketball or something else? Because that's where the money is for women. Get serious. This isn't complicated. No one here has animus toward Greco, and I 100% think it's great that kids who do it have such devotion and love for a grueling and noble sport. But you're just baiting me into a simple google search and laying out some basic facts. There is something to be said about a sport not being popular enough and talent pool, but I don't agree with this transitive property of "athlete". It's not true. Sports are different with different rules and can require different attributes to succeed. They also have different emphasizes on three broad categories which I would call athleticism, skill, and the mental aspect. For some being large, strong, fast, nimble and you're on your way to being great. Other sports require thousands of hours of muscle memory, skill devloplment. For soccer. Other countries have it as the universal sport, while the US does not (p2p suburbs etc). I think it's that simple. And this where skill/technique and sport specificity come into play. Is messi a great athlete? He's short (even with growth hormone injections) and not particularly strong or fast . But he has incredible first touch, dribbling ability, passing, and can read the game very well. All very soccer specific. Yet he wouldn't have made it in the other major sports. That's not unique to him, it's an feature of soccer. Was Thomas Muller a great athlete (lol no), soccer has a whole host of people like him. Even Ronaldo who is a good athlete for a soccer player, I don't think he would have made the NFL as a runningback (one of the most athleticism selection positions). Tennis. Tennis is a highly skill dependent sport where you need thousands of hours to develop specific muscle memory. They are not competing against that many other people, a couple thousand who have been groomed to be tennis players since they were 2-4 years old. Djokovich is not that elite of an athlete. There are many people who are a combinations of faster, stronger, more agile than him (athleticism). Greco is very niche, I agree with that. 1
The Kid Posted July 12 Posted July 12 51 minutes ago, dragit said: I don't think our athletes in soccer (or Greco) are horrible or anywhere near that. They're definitely outstanding. Just not as good as the very best, who are playing other sports because the incentives line up that way. Because soccer isn't as prominent and there aren't big money opportunities in the U.S., the best American athletes play shortstop and center field like Bobby Witt and Pete Crow Armstrong, and wide receiver and cornerback like Tyreek Hill and Jalen Ramsey. Those positions are very much skill positions, and my thesis is that if guys in the U.S. with that kind of athleticism were incentivized to play soccer since they were small, they'd pick up soccer skills and be the best in that sport. They might be world class and more competitive, but who's to say that they would be the best? You don't have to have the best athletes to win at soccer. You need to have the best soccer players. Yes, practicing soccer for 15 years will make you better. But, better coaching and training in another huge factor. Most youth soccer coaches in our country are parents of the kids, not some world class futbol player.
LJB Posted July 12 Posted July 12 20 minutes ago, The Kid said: They might be world class and more competitive, but who's to say that they would be the best? You don't have to have the best athletes to win at soccer. You need to have the best soccer players. Yes, practicing soccer for 15 years will make you better. But, better coaching and training in another huge factor. Most youth soccer coaches in our country are parents of the kids, not some world class futbol player. me trying to talk about soccer would hold as much weight as most on this board speaking about greco... but... the above is a huge reason why US greco is weak... coaching and training... there are about 5 people in this country that can really coach greco... all our senior guys are spread out and do not get pushed in training domestically... and like soccer, there is just a general lack of exposure and which the athletes feel and fosters a general malaise through the program as a whole... it is definitely getting better... the senior camp they just had was far and away the best camp in the last 5 years and our results have generally improved over the last several years with our current crop of guys... it was not that long ago that our leg grabbers had generally very poor results for a quite a long stretch before this latest "golden age" 1
Caveira Posted July 12 Posted July 12 On 7/8/2026 at 11:13 PM, LJB said: None of the anonymous nerds can actually name a Greco world team member It goes to the popularity of the sport. And it isn’t worth the cpu it costs Google to goggle it.
LJB Posted July 12 Posted July 12 1 minute ago, Caveira said: It goes to the popularity of the sport. And it isn’t worth the cpu it costs Google to goggle it.
Caveira Posted July 12 Posted July 12 4 minutes ago, LJB said: How many guys on the Greco ladder are serious threats for let’s say the NCAAs finals. It’s zero right ?
Caveira Posted July 12 Posted July 12 3 hours ago, LJB said: had generally very poor results for a quite a long stretch before this latest "golden age" When? From 1980 through 2026, the United States Men’s National Freestyle Wrestling Team has won the official World Championship team title 4 times (1993, 1995, 2017, and 2022). [1, 2] Because the international wrestling governing body (United World Wrestling) only tracks official team standings for the annual World Championships and not the Olympic Games, team finishes are not recorded for Olympic years (1980, 1984, 1988, 1992, 1996, 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2021, and 2024). The year-by-year official World Championship team finishes for the United States are detailed below: [] 1980s 1980: No World Championships held (Olympic Year) 1981: 3rd place 1982: 3rd place 1983: 3rd place 1984: No World Championships held (Olympic Year) 1985: 3rd place 1986: 3rd place 1987: 3rd place 1988: No World Championships held (Olympic Year) 1989: 2nd place [1] 1990s 1990: 2nd place 1991: 2nd place 1992: No World Championships held (Olympic Year) 1993: 1st place (Team Champions) 1994: 4th place 1995: 1st place (Team Champions) 1996: No World Championships held (Olympic Year) 1997: 6th place 1998: 3rd place 1999: 2nd place [1] 2000s 2000: No World Championships held (Olympic Year) 2001: 5th place 2002: No finish recorded (The U.S. team did not travel to Tehran, Iran due to safety concerns) 2003: 2nd place 2004: No World Championships held (Olympic Year) 2005: 8th place 2006: 3rd place 2007: 4th place 2008: No World Championships held (Olympic Year) 2009: 7th place 2010s 2010: 22nd place 2011: 3rd place 2012: No World Championships held (Olympic Year) 2013: 5th place 2014: 9th place 2015: 6th place 2016: No official team standings (Only non-Olympic weight classes were wrestled) 2017: 1st place (Team Champions) 2018: 2nd place 2019: 4th place 2020s to 2026 2020: No World Championships held (Canceled due to COVID-19) 2021: 2nd place 2022: 1st place (Team Champions) 2023: 2nd place 2024: No official team standings (Only non-Olympic weight classes were wrestled) 2025: 2nd place
LJB Posted July 12 Posted July 12 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Caveira said: How many guys on the Greco ladder are serious threats for let’s say the NCAAs finals. It’s zero right ? hey dummy... very few on the senior level still bothers with leg grabbing... but... zain richards was a 2X AA and a senior free world team member... can't make the greco team... peyton robb was a 3X AA and has been trying to make a senior greco team for several years... always gets destroyed... cholton schultz was a 5X AA... coon was a 3X AA... max in HS won national championships in folk, free, and greco and chose NMU over UNI... otto's first year competing at junior national duals as a 14 year old wrestling up was the only kid in the nation to go undefeated in both free and greco at 17-0... got convinced to come back his senior year of HS and wrestle and went 50-0 and only gave up one TD all season... committed to iowa and won a college open while there but just didn't love wrestling the boring style enough to stay in iowa and fully committed to full time greco... he even has an international free medal to go along with all his greco medals... joel adams won natio0nal championships in free and greco and probably a ton of state championships and finally made the senior team this year... he was originally at Michigan but has since transferred to Oregon state... attao multiple time fargo AA in leg grabbing and all the state titles but after one year at oregon state went full time greco... the list can go on and on, but, that is just top of my head... now run along back to your hole... Edited July 12 by LJB
Caveira Posted July 12 Posted July 12 Just now, LJB said: hey dummy... nobody on the senior level still bothers with leg grabbing... but... zain richards was a 2X AA and a senior free world team member... can't make the greco team... peyton robb was a 3X AA and has been trying to make a senior greco team for several years... always gets destroyed... cholton schultz was a 5X AA... coon was a 3X AA... max in HS won national championships in folk, free, and greco and chose NMU over UNI... otto's first year competing at junior national duals as a 14 year old wrestling up was the only kid in the nation to go undefeated in both free and greco at 17-0... got convinced to come back his senior year of HS and wrestle and went 50-0 and only gave up one TD all season... committed to iowa and won a college open while there but just didn't love wrestling the boring style enough to stay in iowa and fully committed to full time greco... he even has an international free medal to go along with all his greco medals... joel adams won natio0nal championships in free and greco and probably a ton of state championships and finally made the senior team this year... he was originally at Michigan but has since transferred to Oregon state... attao multiple time fargo AA in leg grabbing and all the state titles but after one year at oregon state went full time greco... the list can go on and on, but, that is just top of my head... now run along back to your hole... So zero ? You didn’t answer the question. You made up a new one you liked better and answered that. Maybe a better question. are senior Greco world team members a bigger threat to win a medal at worlds or to make the ncaa finals if they were wrestling in college? Thats a tough over under boss. Maybe put the over under at 0.5 and take the under.
LJB Posted July 12 Posted July 12 hey dummy... if you can AA you can win NCAAs... why do you insist on making up fairy tale questions? obviously any of our greco world team members would be a bigger threat to make NCAA over winning a world medal... NCAAs is the minor leagues and the talent level is simply not even comparable... what is your end goal here, dummy???
Caveira Posted July 12 Posted July 12 Just now, LJB said: hey dummy... if you can AA you can win NCAAs... why do you insist on making up fairy tale questions? obviously any of our greco world team members would be a bigger threat to make NCAA over winning a world medal... NCAAs is the minor leagues and the talent level is simply not even comparable... what is your end goal here, dummy??? I think they typically would be a threat for neither. All the statistical talent is in the folkstyle camp and not the Greco camp. All that sumo pushing and standing around hand fighting for days certainly erodes their skills. y’all haven’t had a world or Olympic medal in almost 20 years and the program isn’t going down hill it has fallen off the face of the earth
LJB Posted July 12 Posted July 12 2 minutes ago, Caveira said: I think they typically would be a threat for neither. All the statistical talent is in the folkstyle camp and not the Greco camp. All that sumo pushing and standing around hand fighting for days certainly erodes their skills. y’all haven’t had a world or Olympic medal in almost 20 years and the program isn’t going down hill it has fallen off the face of the earth hey dummy... first and foremost, you should not think... it really does not play to your strengths... secondly, Tracy Hancock won a bronze medal at tokyo... Coon won a silver at 2018 worlds... bisek won two bronze medals in 2014 and 2015... you are sooooo bad at this...
MPhillips Posted July 12 Posted July 12 2 minutes ago, Caveira said: ...it has fallen off the face of the earth It seems you take great pride in this espousing... .
LJB Posted July 12 Posted July 12 seriously, what are you trying to prove here? you don't like greco... fine... why would you comment on anything to do with it? i get being an anonymous forum nerd is your ceiling, but, why bother to come into the international forum and just look like an idiot over and over again? it is just so odd...
LJB Posted July 12 Posted July 12 1 minute ago, MPhillips said: It seems you take great pride in this espousing... not sure how we can have 8 athletes ranked in top 20 of the planet with the program having fallen off the face of the earth... poor little fella is just out of his depth here...
russelscout Posted July 12 Posted July 12 Who would even be considered the greatest Greco wrestler in US history? Would it be Rulon? He got 4th at Nebraska in 93 and that was it, according to Wikipedia.
Jadon Dinwiddie Downers Grove South, Illinois Class of 2027 Committed to Wisconsin Parkside Projected Weight: 141
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