Sulyvahn

The best year the Soviet Union had was 1975. They won 8 golds, 1 silver, and a 4th place. The only golds they did not win were at 100kg and 100+kg. They should have won at 100 kg as there rep was Balboshin. Balboshin was a great 6x champion, but he got injured during the tournament. At 100+, Bulgarias Tomov was the king of the heavies in the 70s and early 80s and imo by far the best wrestler to never win an Olympic Gold. Now Russia's silver winning rep did beat him (and the field I suppose since these weren't single elimination) at the olympics. All that to say, they really could have gone 10/10 golds that year. Matching the soviet union would be so hard. They won 28/29 world team titles during their title runs and had multiple wresters win 5+ world level titles.

I think them winning a lot popularized Greco. Maybe Sourian did convince them to invest in greco at the grassroots. Also this thread has been maintained by a small cohort of dedicated overseas Iranians over the years. A half dozen people maybe. So a tiny group on an obscure internet forum. Some of them have stopped posting recently. I haven't seen Irani post in a while or that Shiraz guy. I remember this thread being pretty dead at the last Olympics games, even during the MFS portion, compared to what it would get in the past. So you're seeing less chatting because 3/6 dedicated posters are inactive.

Iran is not a traditional greco power. They are a traditional freestyle power. They have been a top team internationally since the 50s. Greco was dominated by Europe in the 20th century. First by the nordic/germanic countries and then later by the European eastern bloc. Iran didn't become a top greco nation until about the 2010s. Sourian was a canary in the coal mine in the 00s, a bit earlier. This forum also skews middle aged to older. I'm guessing the posters here grew up hearing from their fathers and grandfathers about the freestyle national heroes from the 50s and 60s winning olympic medals or world titles. As to why it was freestyle from the start. I don't know. Maybe Iran had a popular folkstyle that managed to survive longer than the rest of the world, and it was similar to freestyle so that's the international one that was picked.

A 46 year old made it to the US team finals and took a match from the 77 kg rep. I know that guy is decorated but no nearly 50 year old should be that close to making a world team in a good nation. Maybe for 130 kg, someone 1-1s every match and no one can score on him. That might happen, but at a dynamic weight like 77 kg? What's there to expect when 50 year olds are you #2 in the nation.

Does Gogi still have the job? I had to do a double take, but Roman Vlasov in 2021 is the last Russian rep to win a world championship. Granted, Russia was banned many of the following years. Still, a second year in a row with no world champs, it's a program in in turmoil. 60, 130, 67, 77, just so many weights where they would need a mini miracle. Esmaeli passed the test and won a razor thin match that all great light and middleweights face. If he keeps winning, I'm sure he will face many more in the years to come.

Saravi's loss doesn't surprise me. I did not think he was going to sweep this cycle. That's so hard to do. I wasn't necessarily expecting Sargsyan to be the culprit . I like Sargsyan, he's passionate and you can tell this means the world to him. Sargsyan has an exciting style and isn't big for the weight class. I think Sargsyan has a better chance against Kyril than Milov. Milov himself has been deeply intertwined with politics, that I wont get into. Hedayati - most dominant run since Karelin's 1998 world championship? He still has the final to go. I don't mean to be critical, but can the world not find someone better than Darius Vitek? Vitek is going to get killed starched tommorow. I wonder what's going through Riza's head. The loss wasn't the worst. A throw. Riza got tired later. I think he could get that match back from Matti in the future. But the only reason Riza is back is to win an olympic gold medal and it looks like he can't beat Heyadati. Riza's endurance is horrible, I think Riza would get teched. No one has a bigger ego than Riza and it's part of his success. Still Riza has to be looking at Matti losing, who he had a tough battle with, as a dreadful state of affairs. Riza already took an L from a younger Heyadati. It was also surreal to here the english commentator call Riza the "giant turk" while Matti is a head taller and looks at least as heavy. Riza is 5 ft 10 and when he slims down post retirement he'll probably weigh under 200 lbs. He's not a naturally big man.

It's really tough right now because Iran has both weights wide quality and depth at least on par with Azerbajan and Russia (if not better), AND they also have the most strong favorites (Hedayati, Saravi, Esmaeli). Russia doesn't have an Evloev or Vlasov in their current team, let a lone more than one. It's plausible that they walk away with no golds again.

Well there goes my bronze pick. I was banking on a Russian bounce back, no finalists so far. I don't see Russia winning gold at 130 or 97 .

I'm mainly interested in 87kg+ weights, but here goes 55 kg Gold: Sefershaev Azizi has been the mainstay of this weight class, but I think the younger Sefershaev will win this weight. I think Sefer has won the lat two euros. I also generally think Russia will have a bounce back from their atrocious 2025 worlds performance, and this will be part of it. US Perspective: Nowry is 36? That's so old for a lightweight (granted these very bottom end lowest weights sometimes do have more successful oldies than the 60-80 range). DNP 60 kg Idk. I feel like we were robbed of a rivalry between Emelin and Fumita during their prime years. I don't think the champion from last year will repeat. US Prospective: DNP. i think he is a typical representation of the no medal era crowd. 63 kg I am rooting for Emelin since I like his style. Nazaryans son is here. That's interesting US prospective: I don't know much about Johnson. My guess is he's probably on the older side and a lot like our 60 kg rep. 67 kg Gold: Jafarov I think 67kgs ruthlessness is going to finally catch up to Esmaeili. Some match will be really close and I see him being on the wrong end of it. US prospective: Black still loses conformably to wrestlers at least a level below a Jafarov. He is young, unlike a lot of the squad. On the opposite side of the favorite which helps. DNP. 72 kg I don't know much about this weight class. Benji Peak is an odd looking fellow. Tall and very very thin. 77 kg Gold: Fristch The only name I recognize is Fritsch, I think he is the blond Hungarian? That's all I got. He's pretty good, maybe his stars will align. US Perspective: The 77 kg rep lost a match to a 46 year old at the trial finals? DNP. 82 kg Gold: idk Makhmudov is here. I do get the feeling that he might be in that unfortunate Geraei faze of his career that most wrestlers from 60-82ish kg go through. It's just a brutal sport. One moment your on top of the world the next you realize you might never be a champion again. Him going up in weight isn't a good sign. US Perspective: I think Kamal Bey and Schutlz are the two best wrestlers (as in most likely to medal) that the US has on the team. Whatever I am going out on a limb here. Bronze 87 kg Gold: Alirzaev Komarov, Levai, Alirzaev.... all can beat each other on any given day. 87 has so much parity at the top level. I am going with the Russia bounce back. US Prospective: I think he is better than most of our reps, but 87 has so may gold medal level wrestlers and he's not at that level. So it makes it unlikely that he'll get a bronze. DNP 97 kg Gold: Milov I just don't think Saravi will sweep the cycle. Someone is going to derail him. Milov is huge, beat Aleksanjan, and has been wrestling well. I'm bearish on Sargsian. He's undersized and really struggles to score agains the better wrestlers. It's a shame Evloev lost his lifts, what can you do though that style is so taxing. US Prospective: Just happy to be there. I've heard that this weight has been horrendous recently, even by US greco standards. Boykin was really bad, and he was our rep in the recent past. DNP 130 Gold: Hedayati The biggest favorite of all the weights. He should wreck everyone. Old man Riza and "God knows what shape I'll be in" Semenov do not have the cardio to hang with him. The 20 year old version was already beating Riza, and he's just gotten better, stronger. He has a nasty headlock and snap down that the plodders in this weight class (just waiting for par terre) aren't used to. The only hope for the field I think is that someone young, like maybe Hlinhcuk, physically matured and jumped a lot of levels. American Prospective: Great draw. The heavy hitters are on the other side. Shultz's problem has been that he doesn't have great defense. And if you're facing a bunch of Vitek types, chasing to make up the score almost never works for a whole tournament. DNP.

Yeah. Vegas worlds in 2015 had decent attendance. That wasn't too long ago. It makes sense. People would rather watch the best in the world trying their very best than an odd tournament that is kind of a C team or feels unimportant. I think if these were seniors and not age group, it would have been much better attended. I think there are people who will go/went to neither who would have gone to a Norway or Croatia. They wont go to Kazahkstan because it's so far, hard to get to, and in the middle of nowhere. They also didn't go to U23s because U23s aren't a draw in general. I am not expecting a big American contigent at senior worlds.

Stillwater hosted WNO. Attendance was atrocious. There was some event not that long ago hosted in Iowa (I can't remember what it was, but I know Spencer did not attend), also had abysmal attendance. These crowds you see at duals or state tournaments, not the same people who would attend a U23 event. A lot of attnedees in those crowds are just there to support their institution. They know there school is good at wrestling, so they show up. They don't care about wrestling at all besides that. Then you have the fans who maybe wrestled at states, then their sons did, and now they're hoping their grandkids will. They show up to the state tournament every year since there is a real connection. Absolutely no one has wrestled for the US national team. To top it off, it's U23s. The most redundant of all the age group tourneys. And it's right before seniors. Granted seniors is being held in Kazakhstan, so a lot of the American contingent that would have shown up to a Norway or Hungary wont be there.

Would attendance be any better at St. Petersburg or Moscow? Without busing school kids in or making wresting athletes and coaches sit in the stands, of course. European tournaments are glass houses in that regard. I think US college fan turnout blows everyone in the world out of the water besides maybe Iran.

Russia being down and Cuba running out of money for sure helps. I've been wondering if eventually Russian Greco will slowly morph into the Dagestan+Ossetia B/C team. I hope not, but signs do point that way. Russia placed 3rd with just one champion. They had no champions at senior worlds last year (well unless you count Komarov). I think China is trying to make a serious push into greco. It's smart. Of all olympic medals to be won in grapplings, I'd say greco has the most opportunity for an ambitious nation to dominate.You don't have to deal with wrestling obsessed American and Dagestan rivals. I think Lopez and that cuban coach were over there recently.

I don't think 24 teams even sent full squads. A terrible result.

I don't think you can blame the USA Greco people. They send full teams to all the major events (many other countries federations do not). Their realm is more paperwork, bureaucratic, logistics for camps worlds etc, setting up the process for team selection. It's not their place to directly develop medalists. That's beyond their capabilities. To be great I think you need an adequately sized pool of talented athletes (probably motivated parents) and multiple men like Viktor Kuznetsov/Greco versions of Ben Askren who have dedicated their lives to working with and developing wrestlers on a day to day basis. I think Iran would be an interesting case study in how they catapulted from middling nation to a greco superpower in a relatively short time frame. I have my guesses.

The US doesn't exist in a vacuum. That golden era followed the collapse of the eastern bloc. Bulgaria (especially), Romania, Poland, etc never recovered to what they were before. This coincided with the weakening of the nordic countries. Yes you could argue that the splitting of the soviets into Armenia, Georgia, Ukraine counter balanced the losses of those other programs, but I still think that on the whole it was much easier. Bulgaria was so good, to this day their absence from heavyweight greco can be felt through undersized Riza's sleepwalking to euro titles. Nowadays, I think the emergence of Iran along with Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan and Japan make things harder than the old era. They are also not following that post soviet model that a 2000s Ukranian would have had of recruit them from the draft. I think they are starting them much younger.

All of that is true and yet Riza still walked his way to another 130 kg European gold coronation. No one new has emerged.

55: I think of this weight as the shadow of 130 kg in that very few men optimally weight this much (malnourished 20th century farmers used to make up these classes). When a unicorn appears, like Azizli or Lopez, you see long medal counts and careers. 60: I still think of this weight class as Fumita's and Emelin's, even thought they may never wrestle at 60 kg again. It's a weight in flux to me, no one stands out. 67: 67 is a meat grinder of a weight. It churned and spat out Reza. Let's see how Esmaeili does. 77: Feels like a weight in flux. Nao pinned Akzhol at the asian games and both of these figures are more interesting to me than the actual field. 87: No Bisultanov? I thought he'd be the closest thing that this weight would have to a Beleniuk like figure. Mohmedi, Aliraaev, Komarov (terrible posture), Levai (who has a second in Hungary).... there is just no separation. All of them can beat each other on a given day. I don't mean that in some generic sportive sense, I mean 87 is unique in that so many wrestlers are on the same level as each other. 97: Where is KIRIL MILOV??? His career is wonky. Boycotts the 25 worlds after beating Aleksanjan. Burns an Olympics wrestling no hope at 130 kg. Sargsian is undersized, he struggles to produce ofence against the top wrestlers. Sargsian looks like he's 40 even thought he's apparently in his mid 20s. 130: Heydati should crush all these people. The field is bad. Old man Riza and "who knows what shape I'll be in" Semenov are about it. Hlinchuk and that ukranian wrestler still looked like they had some body maturation to do, idk maybe they rose levels. No Oscar? I don't think he was going to win this one but he had become a good gatekeeper at the weight. No Stekenburg bros? Did the dutch federation finally tell them no after not medaling by their mid 20s? They were pretty good wrestlers, long shots to medal but I think one of them even managed beat Sargsian somehow (lol). I just know the dutch federation is stingy. They had a middle of the pack weightlifter who disappeared after not medaling around the Stekenburg bro's ages. Also what happened to Nazaryan's son? He's in his mid 20s and they don't have lightweight reps. Is that political battle they are having over foreign wrestlers playing out?

From 2000-2010, 5 other teams beat them. They've never been as good as the Soviet Union. They are down now even by Russian standards, but I think the biggest difference is the emergence of Iran. They have the best 67 kg, are best at the world 3 deep at 130 kg. Russia never had a rival like that before ( I think).

You can argue neither style is an entertaining product, since wrestling as whole is a niche sport minnowed by the footballs and baseballs of the world. Or even the second tier of sports like rugby or volleyball. I do concede that freestyle wrestling is currently more popular than greco. That was not always the case, in the first half of the 20th century greco was more popular. Until fairly recently, the styles were roughly a wash in popularity. Even the advantage today is primarily down to 2 or 3 nations ( the US, Iran* these are the people in the stands btw not the locals, and India) boosting freestyle. Look at the European championships in Freestlye, they have been the "Caucus Region of Russia Open" in disguise. That is not a sign of a healthy sport. Wrestling popularity or what really it's entertainment is to people, I think this is primarily derived from participation numbers. Former wrestlers and their families are the main audience who will like and follow it. The general public could care less: folk, free, greco womens etc. Yes greco's numbers plummeted because of what happened in the former greco strongholds of the Nordic countries, Germany - forces far beyond the scope of wrestling that I don't want to get into. About the ball grab rules. If you want to "optimize" wrestling for entertainment and accessibility, you would most likely end up with a rule sett similar to sumo, not folk or freestyle wrestling. Mercifully short bouts with clear intuitive rules (push him out of the circle or make him fall over before you do). These leg laces that end matches, tummy time riding, grounding until recently, are as strange to people outside the freestyle/folk bubble as you find greco. If you are going to diversify beyond sumo esque rules, I think having a style that restricts wrestling to the upper body and focuses on lifts and throws is as natural of a conclusion as a leg grabbing takedown focused style, or submission wrestling. I don't think greco is some accident of history. I don't think the actual points matter, you can make each sequence worth 10 and it's 10-10 or 20-20. I think you are making a comment on the repetitiveness of the bouts and the lack of scoring actions. Ok, that could be listed as a struggle of the sport. Though some athletes do produce many scoring sequences even at the highest level. A lot of sports tinker with time or boosting excitement, this is not unique to greco. I think is mostly a straw man, as again participation is king and Greco just does not have the army of 300+ thousand folk style and youth wrestlers backing it up the way freestyle does.

When the flo people talk about greco, it definitely comes across that they view the style as foreign, alien to then. Yeah maybe a gold medal level American would get some coverage. I think if they had grown up wrestling greco (just like it is with wrestling in general), they'd have a much more positive view of it. But you are blind to your own biases. Someone could harang folk features like riding/tummy time the same way they do for parts of greco they dislike, but that would not cross the flo guy's mind because folk is their comfort zone and what they're used to.

I don't have sacred cows. It helps when an interviewer is knowledgeable on the topic.

Kozak really hates greco. He's held a grudge since he was forced to commentate 2025 greco worlds.

A non in depth brief overview of his career. Bruce talks about his best opponents, gives a surprising answer. My pet peeve of wrestling commentators, pundits, having utter tunnel vision for anything non American in International wrestling was on full display. I could tell the interviewer was surprised when Bruce said he won thanks to the boycott in 84, c'mon man. I feel like these interviews could be so much better if the interveiwee actually knew his stuff and could ask follow up questions or dig into the details. Instead he's just nodding along when Bruce mentions Sandurski Gobishivili, Salman, because he has no idea who any of these people are or their history with Bruce.

I remember how rampant the athlete hero worship was. Oh Gable can do anything, he'll be a tech billionaire if he wants to go that route. Everyone tearfully wave your handkerchief in gratitude as he steps into the sunset to be crowned the king of WWE. Meanwhile WWE: A particular subtype of live theater (acting). No indications Gable would gain a massive following in this subculture. Was cut after performing in middling shows, largely forgotten already I would assume. NFL: Did not have the right body type for lineman - the only realistic position for wrestlers. Was invited by a wresting loving football coach to the practice squad (which his acolytes tried to spin as some great achievement, when it was not). Promptly cut. MMA: This was the only path that intrigued me (well intrigued me in the sense of this might work out for Gable, I am not an MMA fan) as it has has some overlap with wrestling. Pyles was crowning him the UFC champ already. Gets knocked out in 12 seconds by a, no offense (I am sure he is tough compared to regular 9 to 5 people but....), a dad bod unknown meant to pad his record and generate hype. Athletes are normal people. They are not cross disciplinarian savants. He was a gold medalist level wrestler. That oes not mean he was destined to succeed in everything else he tried, and it was obvious he wouldn't in some cases.