Undefeated freshmen - a threat to Cael?

[boconnell]

I think both are much too small to be a threat to Cael.  In Cael's interview Saturday morning during the ESPN broadcast it sounds like Josh Barr is a serious threat to him though.  But I really don't think Vega or Jax could take Cael down.

[Hurricane Wrestling]

2 minutes ago, ionel said:

Are the original wheaties still in the box, does it come with a glass of vintage milk, where do you think you'll set the reserve?  

I'll PM you that info later if its still available.  After all, I've promised my good friend Mr. Caveira first shot.  But you're next in line, Mr. ionel,  I promise.

[Eagle26]

It’s certainly possible, but Vega keeps thing too close, so I’m thinking he drops a few matches. I agree Jax is the better bet because he’s just so darn good! But then again so are the other freshmen around his weight, so it’s probably likely one of them finds a way to beat him at least once. Or with his wide open style he gets caught at some point. 
 

If it does happen though, I would argue that their feat would be greater than Caels because they did it without a red shirt. Even if they have 60 fewer matches, that would still be more impressive to me. 

[LoserJucoMan]

3 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

It’s certainly possible, but Vega keeps thing too close, so I’m thinking he drops a few matches. I agree Jax is the better bet because he’s just so darn good! But then again so are the other freshmen around his weight, so it’s probably likely one of them finds a way to beat him at least once. Or with his wide open style he gets caught at some point. 
 

If it does happen though, I would argue that their feat would be greater than Caels because they did it without a red shirt. Even if they have 60 fewer matches, that would still be more impressive to me. 

I'm in the same boat as you. If they do pull it off I'm putting them above Cael. Vega beating a dominate guy like Mendez and Jax winning 3 more times in a weight class that stacked puts them way over the bar.

[OMW]

13 minutes ago, boconnell said:

I think both are much too small to be a threat to Cael.  In Cael's interview Saturday morning during the ESPN broadcast it sounds like Josh Barr is a serious threat to him though.  But I really don't think Vega or Jax could take Cael down.

boc is right.

Regardless of the rumors of bad blood between Cael and DT, Cael was seen working out with Luke L and some of the OK State lightweights before the finals.

Photos were taken:

 

[Caveira]

43 minutes ago, Hurricane Wrestling said:

You're a fountain of misinformation, Mr. Caveira.  We all know that Sanderson was wrestling unattached at the Northern Iowa Open when Jenn beat him. Neither the rules then nor now can somehow turn that into an official loss - despite your ludicrous ex post facto attempt to do so.

But, since I really like you (despite your numerous misapprehensions), I'll give you first shot at buying my signed Cael Wheaties box before I list it on eBay.  PM me if you're interested.

Carl is still the best ncaa wrestler ever with the loss by a large margin.  
 

approx cost ?

Edited March 24 by Caveira

[LoserJucoMan]

16 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Carl is still the best ncaa wrestler ever with the loss by a large margin.  
 

approx cost ?

I just know you were gritting your teeth while typing that lol

[Caveira]

5 minutes ago, LoserJucoMan said:

I just know you were gritting your teeth while typing that lol

Was not.  Who could any rational human put above him?

[Hurricane Wrestling]

10 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

If the current rules existed back then his attached dates would have likely been used for duals and not tournaments

You bring up an interesting point, Mr. 1032004.  Under the current rules, you can compete in up to 5 official matches without burning your redshirt. 

Now, lets assume a wrestler goes 4-1 in duals but remains in redshirt.  Do the 4 wins and the 1 loss count on his official record or not?  It seems like they should but I'm not sure.  Maybe they just throw out all 5 matches since they occurred in a redshirt season (albeit wrestled officially at the time).

We had a similar discussion some years back concerning Logan Stieber's record.  He wrestled a few matches officially as a true freshman in the 2010-11 season,  but was injured and eventually took a medical redshirt. He was listed on the Buckeye site as having a 5-3 record that season at one point in time (https://ohiostatebuckeyes.com/sports/wrestling/roster/logan-stieber/6883). 

Later on, however, the Buckeye site dropped his 2010-11 season statistics altogether(https://ohiostatebuckeyes.com/sports/wrestling/roster/coaches/logan-stieber/2141).  

The discussion revolved around whether Stieber's career record should be listed as 119-3 or 124-6.  I seem to recall one knowledgeable  poster (may have been Gimp, but I'm not sure) saying that the NCAA doesn't actually determine the wrestlers' official records, that its left up to the schools.

At any rate, its an interesting discussion.  And in no way am I intending to diminish Stieber's accomplishments.  He's one of the greatest of all time and a class act!

[Hurricane Wrestling]

37 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Carl is still the best ncaa wrestler ever with the loss by a large margin.  
 

approx cost ?

Agreed.  As to the Wheaties box, my wife just informed me that the grandkids got into it just last week, ate all the cereal, and tossed the box in the garbage.  

Therefore, I must retract my offer.  My sincerest apologies to you, sir.  

[Caveira]

1 minute ago, Hurricane Wrestling said:

Agreed.  As to the Wheaties box, my wife just informed me that the grandkids got into it just last week, ate all the cereal, and tossed the box in the garbage.  

Therefore, I must retract my offer.  My sincerest apologies to you, sir.  

No worries boss 

[Fred]

Who was the last undefeated true freshman national champion 

[1032004]

12 minutes ago, Hurricane Wrestling said:

You bring up an interesting point, Mr. 1032004.  Under the current rules, you can compete in up to 5 official matches without burning your redshirt. 

Now, lets assume a wrestler goes 4-1 in duals but remains in redshirt.  Do the 4 wins and the 1 loss count on his official record or not?  It seems like they should but I'm not sure.  Maybe they just throw out all 5 matches since they occurred in a redshirt season (albeit wrestled officially at the time).

We had a similar discussion some years back concerning Logan Stieber's record.  He wrestled a few matches officially as a true freshman in the 2010-11 season,  but was injured and eventually took a medical redshirt. He was listed on the Buckeye site as having a 5-3 record that season at one point in time (https://ohiostatebuckeyes.com/sports/wrestling/roster/logan-stieber/6883). 

Later on, however, the Buckeye site dropped his 2010-11 season statistics altogether(https://ohiostatebuckeyes.com/sports/wrestling/roster/coaches/logan-stieber/2141).  

The discussion revolved around whether Stieber's career record should be listed as 119-3 or 124-6.  I seem to recall one knowledgeable  poster (may have been Gimp, but I'm not sure) saying that the NCAA doesn't actually determine the wrestlers' official records, that its left up to the schools.

At any rate, its an interesting discussion.  And in no way am I intending to diminish Stieber's accomplishments.  He's one of the greatest of all time and a class act!

Hmm, hadn’t thought of that in regards to a medical redshirt.  I would think any match especially in a dual “should” count, and thus redshirts using their 5 dates should count, but maybe there’s not an official ruling.  IIRC this came up last year in terms of Angelo Ferrari’s loss to Starocci and assuming that ruined his chance for an undefeated career.

[boconnell]

1 hour ago, Eagle26 said:

It’s certainly possible, but Vega keeps thing too close, so I’m thinking he drops a few matches. I agree Jax is the better bet because he’s just so darn good! But then again so are the other freshmen around his weight, so it’s probably likely one of them finds a way to beat him at least once. Or with his wide open style he gets caught at some point. 
 

If it does happen though, I would argue that their feat would be greater than Caels because they did it without a red shirt. Even if they have 60 fewer matches, that would still be more impressive to me. 

Which of those other freshman showed you anything that makes you think they beat him at least once?  Seidel was reasonably close when Forrest first left HS, and then 6 weeks later he got soundly beat in every facet.  Davino was fantastic and got beat in every facet.  

If the argument is that someone is likely to beat him at some point because perfection is super hard, then that makes a lot of sense.  But there is nothing about the relative levels of Jax and the other freshmen that says he ever loses to them.

[1032004]

4 minutes ago, boconnell said:

Which of those other freshman showed you anything that makes you think they beat him at least once?  Seidel was reasonably close when Forrest first left HS, and then 6 weeks later he got soundly beat in every facet.  Davino was fantastic and got beat in every facet.  

If the argument is that someone is likely to beat him at some point because perfection is super hard, then that makes a lot of sense.  But there is nothing about the relative levels of Jax and the other freshmen that says he ever loses to them.

Hasn’t Blaze beat him in free recently?  I’d be careful with the transitive of seeing what Seidel did to Blaze…

[boconnell]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

Hasn’t Blaze beat him in free recently?  I’d be careful with the transitive of seeing what Seidel did to Blaze…

He beat him in a freestyle match at the 2024 Olympic trials.  If you think that tells you more than what just happened in the NCAA tournament, then I'll just walk away from this discussion.  

[Bacanator]

27 minutes ago, Fred said:

Who was the last undefeated true freshman national champion 

In 1947 there were four of them (Dick Hauser, Lowell Lange, Joe Scarpello, and Dick Hutton). This is the only other season on record with an undefeated true freshman champ. None of them went on to win 4 titles.

Since then Dustin Schlatter was arguably the closest, going 42-1 losing his only match 1-0 and avenging it later in the season.

Yianni was very close as well, up 6-3 against Jayden Eirman, only to get cradled in the last 15 seconds and lose 9-6. He avenged this loss later in the year as well

AJ Ferrari also came close going 19-1 taking a 3-2 loss to Noah Adams. He never got to wrestle Adams again.

Edited March 24 by elijedi06

[1032004]

5 minutes ago, boconnell said:

He beat him in a freestyle match at the 2024 Olympic trials.  If you think that tells you more than what just happened in the NCAA tournament, then I'll just walk away from this discussion.  

I don’t think it tells me “more,” I’m just saying we didn’t see Jax vs Blaze this year so I wouldn’t automatically assume Jax beats Blaze simply because he beat Davino & Seidel who beat Blaze.

[boconnell]

Just now, 1032004 said:

I don’t think it tells me “more,” I’m just saying we didn’t see Jax vs Blaze this year so I wouldn’t automatically assume Jax beats Blaze simply because he beat Davino & Seidel who beat Blaze.

Are we safe in assuming Messenbrink can beat Nico Ruiz?  At what point can we assume undefeated NCAA champs can beat guys down bracket with multiple losses?  Guys who got worked by guys worked by the champ?  

But if you want to hang on to the fantasy that Blaze can beat Forrest, go right ahead.  I'll just walk away from this pointless discussion like I need to.

[Bacanator]

9 minutes ago, boconnell said:

Are we safe in assuming Messenbrink can beat Nico Ruiz?  At what point can we assume undefeated NCAA champs can beat guys down bracket with multiple losses?  Guys who got worked by guys worked by the champ?  

But if you want to hang on to the fantasy that Blaze can beat Forrest, go right ahead.  I'll just walk away from this pointless discussion like I need to.

Anyone is beatable in wrestling that’s the fun of it. This year we saw Mendez go down, last year was Gable, 3 years ago was Lee. 
 

even off the mat, Kyle Snyder succumbed to prostitution, Zahid to cocaine, Aaron Brooks to grocery store supplements, Starrocci to Beau Bartlett… the list goes on and on 

[LoserJucoMan]

28 minutes ago, elijedi06 said:

In 1947 there were four of them (Dick Hauser, Lowell Lange, Joe Scarpello, and Dick Hutton). This is the only other season on record with an undefeated true freshman champ. None of them went on to win 4 titles.

Since then Dustin Schlatter was arguably the closest, going 42-1 losing his only match 1-0 and avenging it later in the season.

Yianni was very close as well, up 6-3 against Jayden Eirman, only to get cradled in the last 15 seconds and lose 9-6. He avenged this loss later in the year as well

AJ Ferrari also came close going 19-1 taking a 3-2 loss to Noah Adams. He never got to wrestle Adams again.

Nah doesn't count. Adams was on HGH so Ferrari's actually undefeated

[ionel]

18 minutes ago, boconnell said:

Are we safe in assuming Messenbrink can beat Nico Ruiz? 

No he can not.  

[MPhillips]

Just now, ionel said:

No he can not.  

I was so hoping you were gonna miss this one...

[ionel]

Just now, MPhillips said:

I was so hoping you were gonna miss this one...

You'd be disappointed with me if I did ............. 

[Bacanator]

2 minutes ago, LoserJucoMan said:

Nah doesn't count. Adams was on HGH so Ferrari's actually undefeated

Ferrari actually clarified he wasn’t accusing anyone of using HGH so I took his statements to mean Bastida simply wasn’t using Hibiclens after practice. The true question is did Adams have bacne