Cael wants a pushout rule

[Loose Headgear]

Stalling maybe needs to be written more literal to make it more consistent i.m.o it would create more room for scoring and action. If the rules award the active wrestler stalling and gaming the current rules would be less of an issue

(X) Amount of legit TD attempts in a row, other guys is stalling.

(X) Amount of steps backwards off whistle (and not just in the last 30secs.) 

(X) Amount of times you were first to reach outer zone (freestyle boundary type of deal)

Amount of time someone has been holding a hold/ride without back points, or the time between bottom guy gaining a base. 

If all that's dumb then just make first period TDs 3 and the other periods only worth 2 again lol. 

Edited March 23 by Loose Headgear
Spelling

[forkemaz]

32 minutes ago, Loose Headgear said:

Stalling maybe needs to be written more literal to make it more consistent i.m.o it would create more room for scoring and action. If the rules award the active wrestler stalling and gaming the current rules would be less of an issue

(X) Amount of legit TD attempts in a row, other guys is stalling.

(X) Amount of steps backwards off whistle (and not just in the last 30secs.) 

(X) Amount of times you were first to reach outer zone (freestyle boundary type of deal)

Amount of time someone has been holding a hold/ride without back points, or the time between bottom guy gaining a base. 

If all that's dumb then just make first period TDs 3 and the other periods only worth 2 again lol. 

Too much to track.

[GV4444]

The shot clock is a terrible idea.  I get it, but you have to consider the unintended consequences.  We have a ref judgment on stalling, now you will have a ref judgment on what a shot is.  Please define it for me.   I liked Rock describing a "committed shot" during the broadcast, but it would still be a judgment on what "committed" means.  Then, you get wrestlers making a shot on the whistle, then tying up or grabbing a wrist or locking fingers (McGowen cough cough), or taking a knee, basically saying you have to take a one-handed shot or a terrible shot in order to avoid a shot clock penalty.

The push out rule solves a problem, but it will have a fundamental impact on the nature of matches.  

[Tchfllsrfke]

Change the stalling rule so a point is given on the first warning. That way people will avoid even the first stalling call and there won't be such an insurmountable separation at the end when we see so many matches closing with a futile flurry from one wrestler and back-back-backing downblocks by the other.

All wrestlers should be looking to score at all times. 1st Stall-1 point, 2nd-1 point, 3rd-1 point, 4th-2 points, 5th-match end.

[TW8]

50 minutes ago, GV4444 said:

The shot clock is a terrible idea.  I get it, but you have to consider the unintended consequences.  We have a ref judgment on stalling, now you will have a ref judgment on what a shot is.  Please define it for me.   I liked Rock describing a "committed shot" during the broadcast, but it would still be a judgment on what "committed" means.  Then, you get wrestlers making a shot on the whistle, then tying up or grabbing a wrist or locking fingers (McGowen cough cough), or taking a knee, basically saying you have to take a one-handed shot or a terrible shot in order to avoid a shot clock penalty.

The push out rule solves a problem, but it will have a fundamental impact on the nature of matches.  

It sounds like you're not familiar with what the shot clock is.  

[alex1fly]

"I was against it for many years. But now I'm for it because it would help my record-breaking team break more records. Also, people are cheating and I've definitely never allowed my staff, athletes, or donors to do that." OK buddy lol

Anyways I don't see how you make a pushout work unless there's a count after an escape/release. Because otherwise I'm walking you to the edge, releasing you, and pushing you out to neutralize your escape point. Also I feel like the edge stalling rule change has already made guys "game" the edge in a way that's positional rather than offensive (i.e. I'm circling and shooting to get a stall call even though I'm shooting us both OOB) so I'd just as soon get rid of that rule than add a pushout point.

Edited March 23 by alex1fly

[ceraIOI]

3 hours ago, GV4444 said:

now you will have a ref judgment on what a shot is

shot clock is not based on shots, its not even called shot clock in FS anymore. its the activity clock

[He Rassle]

Obviously (or so I thought), the pushout is only rewarded from sequences that start from neutral. After an escape, a pushout cannot be rewarded until they're restarted from center - or at least both wrestlers are standing within the center circle.

[He Rassle]

If you're gonna have a shot clock, do it right. Every match alternates wrestlers being on the clock for half of the 1st period. The clocked wrestler can move anywhere, including stepping out; the un-clocked wrestler is subject to a pushout that counts as a takedown.

[Dakota]

Or just call stalling. If you're backing up your stalling.

[boconnell]

5 hours ago, GV4444 said:

The shot clock is a terrible idea.  I get it, but you have to consider the unintended consequences.  We have a ref judgment on stalling, now you will have a ref judgment on what a shot is.  Please define it for me.   I liked Rock describing a "committed shot" during the broadcast, but it would still be a judgment on what "committed" means.  Then, you get wrestlers making a shot on the whistle, then tying up or grabbing a wrist or locking fingers (McGowen cough cough), or taking a knee, basically saying you have to take a one-handed shot or a terrible shot in order to avoid a shot clock penalty.

The push out rule solves a problem, but it will have a fundamental impact on the nature of matches.  

The shot clock has zero to do with defining what a shot is.  The current shot clock in FS that is the context here is an activity clock.  If a guy is judged not to have been active then he is given 30 seconds to score.  At no point is a ref interpreting what a shot is.  None of what you brought up would help anybody avoid a shot clock.

[Elevator]

18 hours ago, WrestleFan12 said:

You really think it would’ve been fair to put Davino or Jax on a shot clock last night?

I like action, but I’m against forcing guys to take shots when nothing is there.

nope

[boconnell]

2 hours ago, alex1fly said:

"I was against it for many years. But now I'm for it because it would help my record-breaking team break more records. Also, people are cheating and I've definitely never allowed my staff, athletes, or donors to do that." OK buddy lol

Anyways I don't see how you make a pushout work unless there's a count after an escape/release. Because otherwise I'm walking you to the edge, releasing you, and pushing you out to neutralize your escape point. Also I feel like the edge stalling rule change has already made guys "game" the edge in a way that's positional rather than offensive (i.e. I'm circling and shooting to get a stall call even though I'm shooting us both OOB) so I'd just as soon get rid of that rule than add a pushout point.

Plus the pushout is already gamed in FS by guys grounding themselves before they go out of bounds.  I honestly think guys go out just as much in FS.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

5 hours ago, forkemaz said:

Too much to track.

Yes, I'm a ref.  That is a lot.  And would be worse for fans.  We want to make stuff as easy to understand as possible, and we still have trouble with it!

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 minute ago, boconnell said:

Plus the pushout is already gamed in FS by guys grounding themselves before they go out of bounds.  I honestly think guys go out just as much in FS.

Supposedly has been fixed, at least somewhat.

[Elevator]

5 hours ago, GV4444 said:

The shot clock is a terrible idea.  I get it, but you have to consider the unintended consequences.  We have a ref judgment on stalling, now you will have a ref judgment on what a shot is.  Please define it for me.   I liked Rock describing a "committed shot" during the broadcast, but it would still be a judgment on what "committed" means.  Then, you get wrestlers making a shot on the whistle, then tying up or grabbing a wrist or locking fingers (McGowen cough cough), or taking a knee, basically saying you have to take a one-handed shot or a terrible shot in order to avoid a shot clock penalty.

The push out rule solves a problem, but it will have a fundamental impact on the nature of matches.  

Could make it that only after the first minute of OT, the push out rule applies.  Also like a fresh start on stalling in OT and any stall call is 1 point and match ender.   The rideout with potential one second diferrence in riding time as the deciding factor is even worse than OT PK's in soccer - very bad for the sport.    

[Elevator]

7 hours ago, forkemaz said:

Heres an idea im sure people will hate. 

If there is a stall call in nuetral position the match is stopped and restarted in the center with an under over clinch. If you break the clinch and move backwards its a point, if you back out of bounds in the clinch its a point. This happens for the first stall call. 

I definitely hate this - but not quite as much as the rideout.

[boconnell]

18 hours ago, WrestleFan12 said:

You really think it would’ve been fair to put Davino or Jax on a shot clock last night?

I like action, but I’m against forcing guys to take shots when nothing is there.

Why wouldn't it be fair?  It wasn't a very active 1st period.  Davino makes absolutely zero effort at scoring in the period.  If you don't like the shot clock, I get that.  It's flawed.  But there was nothing about that match that was unfair in a shot clock sense.  It was a guy doing everything he could to avoid wrestling.

[boconnell]

6 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Supposedly has been fixed, at least somewhat.

I agree they recently made an effort to change the rule.  We will see what effect it has and what unintended effects it has when it plays out at a worlds.

[boconnell]

5 minutes ago, Elevator said:

Could make it that only after the first minute of OT, the push out rule applies.  Also like a fresh start on stalling in OT and any stall call is 1 point and match ender.   The rideout with potential one second diferrence in riding time as the deciding factor is even worse than OT PK's in soccer - very bad for the sport.    

Currently lesser guys play for ride outs.  Guys would just play for sumo in the back half of OT.

I agree that any stalling in ride outs should be a point.  I also think any top stalling in ride outs should negate the RT advantage.  Right now stalling on top is absolutely incentivized in ride outs.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, boconnell said:

I agree they recently made an effort to change the rule.  We will see what effect it has and what unintended effects it has when it plays out at a worlds.

Yes.  I agree!

[Elevator]

Just now, boconnell said:

Currently lesser guys play for ride outs.  Guys would just play for sumo in the back half of OT.

I agree that any stalling in ride outs should be a point.  I also think any top stalling in ride outs should negate the RT advantage.  Right now stalling on top is absolutely incentivized in ride outs.

Agree and we should remove the strategy of delaying for rideout.     

[MPhillips]

5 minutes ago, boconnell said:

We will see what effect it has and what unintended effects it has when it plays out at a worlds.

Making it illegal to ground yourself should take away grounding yourself. What else could happen?

[boconnell]

2 minutes ago, Elevator said:

Agree and we should remove the strategy of delaying for rideout.     

I'd love to remove it unless that means guys are delaying for the pushout period or the clinch period or anything else that's been suggested like that.  I think human nature is that the lesser guy is going to try to keep it close.  It happens in every sport.  I think most attempts to regulate that out will not accomplish what we intend.

[boconnell]

Just now, MPhillips said:

Making it illegal to ground yourself should take away grounding yourself. What else could happen?

I take a shot and my opponent ends up with a front headlock which he then uses to wheel barrow me out of the circle.  If you can now move a grounded opponent out for a point, guys will get great at moving grounded opponents out for points.