uncle bernard

judaism is a cultural identity as much as a religious one. secular jews consider themselves just as “jewish” as religious jews. it is a little strange that this is your hang up with a podcast about the history of of a state whose entire existence is predicated on judaism being a race. that is the explicit claim *of israel.* the funny thing is that those podcasters would probably agree it’s not a race and that’s fundamental to their criticism of israel.

i’m not sure where you’re getting this. they don’t speak about jews as a monolith at all. the total opposite actually. genuinely confused how that was your takeaway

projection

that’s what stalin said too

I have to run to something, but could you explain what you mean here?

1) no, ceasefire would be the start of a longer peace process. you're too concerned with trying to poke holes in everything. use some common sense. why would you think i'd *only* want a temporary ceasefire? 2) no protestor in this country has any impact on hamas' behavior. I can't believe this is so hard to understand. One is a terror group, not recognized as a legit gov by international law, and the other is our ally who receives billions of our tax money every year. why haven't you been out protesting hamas all this time and before 10/7? because you correctly understand that we're not supporting hamas. there's nothing to protest! 3) Yes, I recognize the emotions from Israel's side. I don't fault them at all for having those emotions. They are scared and angry and have reason to be so. They mirror Palestinians in that way. Where we differ on this is you think that grants license to commit crimes and I don't. International Law (and law in general) is established to prevent cycles of violence. Yes, Israel has every right to be angry about 10/7. No, that doesn't mean they have the right to kill innocent civilians and ethnically cleanse Gaza. 4) You're arguing in a fantasy world. I'm trying to argue for what a real solution might actually look like. Sure, they don't deserve conditions. The world isn't fair, my friend. Concessions are made in the service of larger goals for greater benefit and a greater peace. Lastly, really annoying that you keep implying I defend Hamas' actions on 10/7. I've taken the time to respond to your novel length posts in detail. The least you can do is be honest and honorable in debate. You know I've done no such defending of Hamas. I know that's frustrating because it would be easier to argue with me if I had, but I haven't. I'm sorry for that.

next time will be the first time

Disappointingly disingenuous from someone who seemed to be arguing in good faith. 1) The call for ceasefire goes both ways. That protects Israeli civilians too and that's a consistent demand of these protests. 2) You want to have this argument outside of a real world context where we can hold victims to an ideal that is impossible to realize. Would it be awesome if Palestinians were in the streets protesting Hamas? Of course! It would make my case much easier to make. However, I understand why they aren't. They may not love Hamas, but Hamas is clearly *on their side* in this conflict that's been going on for 75 years. There are human emotions involved in this. Most of the people who live in Gaza were already refugees before this war and Hamas wasn't the force that kicked them out of the homes they lived in for generations. So yes, I'm not surprised that they aren't sufficiently anti-Hamas for your liking (you still haven't addressed the West Bank btw which is not Hamas). Your implication seems to be that because they are not sufficiently anti-Hamas, they are legitimate targets of the IDF. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know why you would keep bringing this up otherwise. Well, I don't because that is *explicitly* a war crime. It's an extremely dangerous way of thinking that can be used to justify all sorts of horrors. It's the justification Hamas would give for 10/7. "Those civilians weren't sufficiently anti-Israel, so they're legit targets as occupiers." It's wrong, full stop. I seem to be one of the few on here who actually condemns terroristic ideology like this. Will you join me? (And yes, Hamas should surrender as part of a political process that establishes Palestinian sovereignty or integrates both states under one secular government. Ideally, war criminals from both sides would undergo trial and punishment, but the political reality would likely demand amnesty for both sides as part of the agreement. The rest of the world should be invested in maintaining the peace during this process.)

where did i say that? btw, believing civilians are legit targets because of their gov actions is explicitly a war crime.

i’m confused? i was agreeing with your post. a major reason why shipping the palestinians off to other countries (which is ethnic cleansing btw) is that hamas would inevitably begin operating from those refugee camps, making those countries targets for Israeli airstrikes (see Syria and Lebanon). nobody wants to deal with that scenario.

i don’t think it would end the horror. maybe the current war in Gaza, but not the horror. and it’s not realistic either. nice fantasy sure, but people are more concerned with not dying right now to make brave democratic stands against their authoritarian government. hamas doesn’t control the West Bank and they are still under violent occupation and having their land seized by illegal settlers. How do you account for that if this is only about Hamas? as for the protestors “shaming hamas” sure that would be nice but what’s the point? our gov isn’t supporting hamas. the public doesn’t support hamas. so what would they be protesting against? that’s the part you all keep missing. nobody in this country needs to be educated that an islamist terror group is bad. also there are palestinians who criticized hamas for 10/7. they could all come out and do it and it’s not going to change that hamas has the weapons and is in the tunnels and Israel is is going to keep bombing Gaza in retribution.

so much easier said than done. autocratic governments are hard to overthrow for a reason. and as bad as hamas is, they’re not the ones killing Palestinians right now no matter how anybody tries to twist the logic. right now they’re more concerned with just trying to survive the next run of air strikes.

update on your frat boy freikorps

Yes, ethnically cleansing Palestine is not a long term sustainable solution because it only empowers groups like Hamas. It would make Israel and the rest of the region less safe. Thank you for adding this context.

for those concerned about violence on campus

what makes you say that? you can assume it, but it doesn’t make it true.

why?

this random 19 year old has a better understanding of the world than most of the people on here

I think you're missing the point of the response which is that Israel will always come up some sort of excuse using extremely exaggerated claims not backed by reality to do what they want to do. They wanted to bomb the hospitals, so they claimed there was an elaborate command center in each one, something that was very obviously not true. Now @Offthemat is claiming they don't care about getting hostages released because they're either dead or pregnant (interesting disregard for pregnant women here coming from someone I assume is "pro-life"). There is zero evidence for this being the case as of now. The fact of the matter is that Hamas has offered the remaining hostages in exchange for withdrawal from Gaza. Israel said no because it doesn't care about the hostages. We already knew this. If Israel's top concern was the hostages, it wouldn't have spent the last 6 months bombing the area they were being held. They want to destroy Gaza. That's what they're going to do. 10/7 was the greatest gift the hardliners could have ever received. They would have never been able to accomplish so many of their goals without it. Here's a good question: Why isn't Israel letting independent investigators and journalists into the country to verify their claims? If they were true, showing the world would only solidify Israel's support.

from your own article: “But it fell far short of proving that Hamas used the hospital as a primary command and control node for its operations, an assertion both Israel and the US had repeatedly made before the IDF reached the hospital. Israel went as far as to publish a 3D graphic illustration of a Hamas command hub extending underground directly from the hospital buildings. Neither Israel nor the US have published evidence that fully matches up with the claims.”

just like the giant command centers under the hospitals and schools. oh wait…..

refreshing