David and Cael

[CHROMEBIRD]

It doesn't matter if PSU would clobber Okie State. Carl doesn't want the dual because the spectacle alone would elevate the Cowboys and further erode his recruiting advantages. He's trying to deny their legitimacy.

[SocraTease]

"One repays a teacher badly if one always remains nothing but a pupil." — Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra

 

[jackwebster]

7 minutes ago, SocraTease said:

"One repays a teacher badly if one always remains nothinb but a pupil." — Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra

 

Fair enough, but are you suggesting that DT hasn't moved beyond Sanderson's lessons? 

[Simpleman424]

3 hours ago, Caveira said:

Bobby knight chill ?

No, chill as in you can literally do anything while at his program as long as he still protects his legacy and you can still wrestle…

[Caveira]

1 minute ago, Simpleman424 said:

No, chill as in you can literally do anything while at his program as long as he still protects his legacy and you can still wrestle…

Aaah.  Got it.  Cause I thought he did throw a chair Bobby knight style lol 

[cl415]

1 hour ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

It doesn't matter if PSU would clobber Okie State. Carl doesn't want the dual because the spectacle alone would elevate the Cowboys and further erode his recruiting advantages. He's trying to deny their legitimacy.

How delusional does one have to be to think that having a dual with Oklahoma State “elevates” them? I mean we are talking about the winningest program in NCAA history that has also beat out PSU for multiple high level recruits the last 2 going on 3 years. No chance Cael believes that. 

[SocraTease]

55 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

Fair enough, but are you suggesting that DT hasn't moved beyond Sanderson's lessons? 

As a wrestler, I think he has.  As a coach, he's just getting started and miles away.  I doubt Sanderson thinks much about a competition existing between them, though DT probably still sees Sanderson as an ersatz father figure, someone whom he might want to "slay" (subconsciously).  He went after the GOAT Sadulaev and was hoisted with his own petard. Can't blame him for trying though.  He knows, as the saying goes, that you have to beat the best to be the best

[CHROMEBIRD]

52 minutes ago, cl415 said:

How delusional does one have to be to think that having a dual with Oklahoma State “elevates” them? I mean we are talking about the winningest program in NCAA history that has also beat out PSU for multiple high level recruits the last 2 going on 3 years. No chance Cael believes that. 

Status by association happens all the time in sports. Look at boxing, FBS football, the quad system in basketball, etc. Lesser teams competing against top opponents gives them a platform for visibility and competitive validation, and top teams can deny that to an extent. Not saying it's right, but it's also not hard to imagine Carl shutting down the possibility and not cede an inch of the advantages he has

[boconnell]

5 hours ago, Pinnacle said:

People seem to have this stupid idea that Cael is supposed to jump when DT and his money backer come callin, but the simple truth is that it will happen on Cael's terms, not theirs. 

Who has this stupid idea?  Where are you seeing that Cael is supposed to do what DT says?  And what terms are you talking about?  You schedule a dual or you don't schedule a dual.  Cael has chosen not to.  He isn't holding out for some fake idea of terms of a dual match.  

[KennyEBHS]

What bothers me is that Cael has never acknowledged one of his own getting a great job. I see it in football all the time. An assistant gets a job opportunity and leaves the nest and the head coach is happy for his protege. That's the way coaching works. Cael should be proud of David.

[JWC]

6 hours ago, KennyEBHS said:

When will Cael get over his hissy fit and agree to wrestle David and OSU?

Maybe next year. 

[jackwebster]

4 minutes ago, KennyEBHS said:

What bothers me is that Cael has never acknowledged one of his own getting a great job. 

Socra-tease has figured it out: they're locked in an Oedipal struggle.

[Caveira]

2 hours ago, cl415 said:

How delusional does one have to be to think that having a dual with Oklahoma State “elevates” them? I mean we are talking about the winningest program in NCAA history that has also beat out PSU for multiple high level recruits the last 2 going on 3 years. No chance Cael believes that. 

Both Oklahoma state and Iowa have more titles than psu.   Wrestling started before 2011

Edited February 23 by Caveira

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, KennyEBHS said:

What bothers me is that Cael has never acknowledged one of his own getting a great job. I see it in football all the time. An assistant gets a job opportunity and leaves the nest and the head coach is happy for his protege. That's the way coaching works. Cael should be proud of David.

How do you conclusively know he hasn’t?  Cael is a pretty private guy. He probably doesn’t tell the media the details of every conversation he has with his wrestlers, current and former. 

[SocraTease]

1 hour ago, jackwebster said:

Socra-tease has figured it out: they're locked in an Oedipal struggle.

There is some interesting literature on this subject of the internal "agon" (struggle or contest) within sports and between athletes.  Some of it, of course, is replete with lots of jargon that one needs to decipher, but it can provide an additional lens through which to view competition as long as it isn't too reductive.  We are, of course, also animals and can easily see evolutionary "serious" play with our companion animals at home.  My two cats are damn good wrestlers and MMA artists, even if one likes to fight from his back and give up near fall points before pinning his companion.  

Here's one peripheral article if you can access it: 

 

Psychoanalytic perspectives on sport: A critical review

• December 2008
• International Journal of Applied Psychoanalytic Studies 5(4):273 - 296
•  
• Abstract: Critically reviewing and comparing various psychoanalytic perspectives on conscious and unconscious motivations in sport, this paper contends that the appeal of sports participation may variously derive from its simultaneously involving the indulgence of pre-Oedipal and Oedipal symbolism within the outward maturity and disciplining frame of a post-Oedipal symbolic form. It considers differences between distinct psychoanalytic frames, favouring Kleinian and object relations above Lacanian approaches, based on their closer attention to the corporeality and sensuousness of sports participation and the conscious and unconscious fantasies embedded in it. Sport's sensuous corporeality, which enables its embodiment of pre-Oedipal fantasy as well as post-Oedipal submission to social reality, lies at the heart of its appeal. Copyright © 2008 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230027891_Psychoanalytic_perspectives_on_sport_A_critical_review

 

[SocraTease]

And here's a much more accessible article about tennis:

https://www.tennis.com/news/articles/the-rally-slaying-the-fathers-uncles

PS: Might this thread be renamed as "David and Goliath"? Pistol Pete of OK State taking aim at the Lion's Eye?

Edited February 24 by SocraTease

[Psalm 1 guy]

8 hours ago, Caveira said:

Both Oklahoma state and Iowa have more titles than psu.   Wrestling started before 2011

True, but for recruits, soon-to-be recruits or up-and-coming recruits, the only dominant team they have ever known is Penn State. Here is the team and individual titles breakdown since the 2011 season:

Individual NCAA tiles: Penn State (40), Oklahoma State (10) and Iowa (8).

Team titles: Penn State (12), Iowa (1) and Oklahoma State (0).

For youngsters, recent history has been all Penn State. It is going to take some sustained success from David Taylor for recruits to view them as the new shiny thing, even with Jax in their line-up. Taylor is doing a phenomenal job of recruiting currently, so we will see how much they cut into Penn State's recent dominance. I'm sorry to say that it is going to be very hard for Iowa to not fall further and further behind. Ohio State and Virginia Tech will probably make up the other top four teams. I think the next few seasons are going to be even more exciting for us fans as the team title chase will be tightening up.   

[PortaJohn]

7 hours ago, Psalm 1 guy said:

True, but for recruits, soon-to-be recruits or up-and-coming recruits, the only dominant team they have ever known is Penn State. Here is the team and individual titles breakdown since the 2011 season:

Individual NCAA tiles: Penn State (40), Oklahoma State (10) and Iowa (8).

Team titles: Penn State (12), Iowa (1) and Oklahoma State (0).

For youngsters, recent history has been all Penn State. It is going to take some sustained success from David Taylor for recruits to view them as the new shiny thing, even with Jax in their line-up. Taylor is doing a phenomenal job of recruiting currently, so we will see how much they cut into Penn State's recent dominance. I'm sorry to say that it is going to be very hard for Iowa to not fall further and further behind. Ohio State and Virginia Tech will probably make up the other top four teams. I think the next few seasons are going to be even more exciting for us fans as the team title chase will be tightening up.   

There's this misconception that PSU has been hoarding all the blue chip recruits.  What Cael and company are good at is getting the best bang for their buck with development.  Taylor will most likely close the gap.  We saw it just last year when he got both Hamiti and Hendrickson over the hump