It is too hard to score in neutral in today's D1 wrestling.

[Caveira]

2 minutes ago, The Kid said:

Greco is too tough. You can roll over a pin yourself when you're tired.

Freestyle is at an all time in the USA.  Its was a golden era with Burroughs leading the way. Snyder. Dake. Taylor. All multiple times world champions.

Forrest. Duke. Blaze. Bassett, Miller etc.  Hard-core freestyle kids.  It's awesome to see this happen in our country.   We will surpass Russis and Iran. Which was nearly inconceivable a decade ago.

 

Freestyle results relative to gold and other medals all time high.  100% agree I got ya there.

 But no one watches it and fans in general don’t gaf about it.   Our wtt and ott and us open and other high level event are barely attended.  It’s aired at 3am for a reason.  There is no us market for it.  
 

Statistically the athletes don’t compete in it 

Edited February 2 by Caveira

[forkemaz]

8 minutes ago, The Kid said:

Where? 

The coverage is better and the elite wrestlers are better. No doubt. But, the sport is in decline. Girls wrestling has increased though.

The elite high school guys are awesome, how about your local non power schools? So many forfeits and pins. There aren't any fans there, except their parents and friends. 

Not to mention the number of D1 colleges who have dropped wrestling since 1970 is staggering. Yeah, title 9.

I honestly don't know how much longer it will be before we see D1 wrestling with under 50 teams.  Especially with the poaching and open market NIL.

 

I was born in the 80s. Viewership is up, participation is up. If you weigh girls programs against lost male d1 programs im not sure how much has been lost. The state of modern atheltics and universites is a different matter than if wrestling itself is declining. 

[The Kid]

5 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Scoring rule changes are going to take care of nil and poaching ?

No.. but being boring as hell wont increases viewership.

And smaller schools will tap out because they're most likely losing money because of decreased enrollment.   Fringe sports like wrestling will be the first to be dropped.  Its a domino effect 

[Caveira]

3 minutes ago, The Kid said:

No.. but being boring as hell wont increases viewership.

And smaller schools will tap out because they're most likely losing money because of decreased enrollment.   Fringe sports like wrestling will be the first to be dropped.  Its a domino effect 

Freestyle today is far more boring than folkstyle today.  All #s attendance , competitors , etc prove that.  
 

you have a full summer freestyle season.  A entire season dedicated to freestyle.  Why are far less kids and attendees going to that.  You literally have the sport you want.  Keep it.  Attend it.   Get kids to go to it. 
 

if kids really gave more shits about freestyle they would just do freestyle and play soccer or football or baseball or whatever in the off season.   They don’t.  A bazillion more stay in folkstyle percentage wise.  

Edited February 2 by Caveira

[The Kid]

Just now, forkemaz said:

I was born in the 80s. Viewership is up, participation is up. If you weigh girls programs against lost male d1 programs im not sure how much has been lost. The state of modern atheltics and universites is a different matter than if wrestling itself is declining. 

Where is participation up?  Im multiple forfeits per dual meet.  Sometimes ip to half the matches are forfeits.  The jv teams used to have better participation in the PIAA. Even our good teams are forfeited weights?  The teams are lucky to have 20 kids. 

[forkemaz]

2 minutes ago, The Kid said:

Where is participation up?  Im multiple forfeits per dual meet.  Sometimes ip to half the matches are forfeits.  The jv teams used to have better participation in the PIAA. Even our good teams are forfeited weights?  The teams are lucky to have 20 kids. 

 

 

from google:

High school wrestling in the U.S. has reached record participation, with over 374,000 total athletes in the 2024-25 season, including over 300,000 boys and a rapidly growing, record-setting 74,064 girls. The sport experienced a significant resurgence in the 2020s, with girls' participation surging by 15% and roughly 1,000 new girls' teams added in 2024-25. 

[forkemaz]

3 minutes ago, The Kid said:

Where is participation up?  Im multiple forfeits per dual meet.  Sometimes ip to half the matches are forfeits.  The jv teams used to have better participation in the PIAA. Even our good teams are forfeited weights?  The teams are lucky to have 20 kids. 

 https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/11223805-high-school-wrestling-participation-tops-300k-for-first-time-in-45-years

Here it is from flo

[Caveira]

3 minutes ago, The Kid said:

Where is participation up?  Im multiple forfeits per dual meet.  Sometimes ip to half the matches are forfeits.  The jv teams used to have better participation in the PIAA. Even our good teams are forfeited weights?  The teams are lucky to have 20 kids. 

Precise Illinois Kids Wrestling Federation (IKWF) yearly totals are less publicly standardized than IHSA data, but recent membership records and 

USA Wrestling reports  indicate the following participation trends: 

 

Year	# of Kids (Estimated/Approximate)
2023-24	23,593 (Total IL USAW Members)
2022-23	~21,000
2021-22	~18,500
2020-21	(COVID-19 - Limited/No State Series)
2019-20	~19,000
2018-19	~18,500
2017-18	~18,000
2010-2016	Fluctuated between 16,000 - 18,000
2004-2009	Estimated 14,000 - 16,000

[LIV4GOD]

3 hours ago, Caveira said:

Folkstyle wrestling doesn’t need fixing.  It’s more popular than freestyle here.  It’s more fun to watch than freestyle here.   More wrestlers like folkstyle.  More fans like it here 

I'm going to respectfully disagree.  I used to take 8 or more guys to NCAA nationals each year.  It seemed each year it got worse for them as people relentlessly went out of bounds to keep from getting scored on.  The fact is that they all got bored, and many just lost their enthusiasm for the sport.  What do they watch now?  Freestyle.

[Caveira]

13 minutes ago, LIV4GOD said:

I'm going to respectfully disagree.  I used to take 8 or more guys to NCAA nationals each year.  It seemed each year it got worse for them as people relentlessly went out of bounds to keep from getting scored on.  The fact is that they all got bored, and many just lost their enthusiasm for the sport.  What do they watch now?  Freestyle.

Statistically you’re wrong.  As statistically far more people watch NCAAs vs freestyle.  Show me ott or wtt us open or world championships viewership data vs NCAAs.   This one I’ll wait for.   
 

playing the edge in folkstyle had been a thing since the Gettysburg address.  

Edited February 2 by Caveira

[Wrestej]

27 minutes ago, forkemaz said:

 https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/11223805-high-school-wrestling-participation-tops-300k-for-first-time-in-45-years

Here it is from flo

I would be interested to see what % of kids are participating in wrestling today as opposed to 45 years ago.  I would have to think greater % 45 years ago but can’t say for sure.  Population was way lower but I don’t know the breakdown in kids and adolescents.

[Wrestej]

55 minutes ago, forkemaz said:

 

 

from google:

High school wrestling in the U.S. has reached record participation, with over 374,000 total athletes in the 2024-25 season, including over 300,000 boys and a rapidly growing, record-setting 74,064 girls. The sport experienced a significant resurgence in the 2020s, with girls' participation surging by 15% and roughly 1,000 new girls' teams added in 2024-25. 

I real quick did the numbers according to google.  1985, 4.6% of high school kids competed in wrestling.  2025 a 1.88%

[forkemaz]

12 minutes ago, Wrestej said:

I real quick did the numbers according to google.  1985, 4.6% of high school kids competed in wrestling.  2025 a 1.88%

Seems unlikely to me but i didnt do thr math. Highest number of participants in 45 years, viewership is up as well. Continue to look for a reason to claim its in decline if you want. 

[Caveira]

7 minutes ago, forkemaz said:

Seems unlikely to me but i didnt do thr math. Highest number of participants in 45 years, viewership is up as well. Continue to look for a reason to claim its in decline if you want. 

What % of the ones in hs actually wrestle freestyle? 15% of em?

[Wrestej]

14 minutes ago, forkemaz said:

Seems unlikely to me but i didnt do thr math. Highest number of participants in 45 years, viewership is up as well. Continue to look for a reason to claim its in decline if you want. 

Oh I’m not claiming it’s in decline.  That is just going off the number of participants in wrestling in those years divided by number of students.  This was only for public schools of course.  And yes 2025 has 374,278 participants in wrestling.  Roughly 20,000,000 students.  Numbers are just 9-12.  Both 85 and 25

[JimmySpeaks]

4 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

I am on board with your thinking BruceyB.  I may be more in favor for OOB point than you.  The degree the edge is played, and allowed, is frankly sad.

 IMO taking the standard mat size from 42x42 to 52x52 while leaving the circle the same size or maybe slightly bigger would remove most of the edge play.  Too often wrestler A has his toe in the circle trying to complete a takedown and wrestler B will drop to the splits and toe tap or hand touch out of bounds. In addition add a stall call to any wrestler (on offense or defense) that has both feet leave the circle.  Other than the mat costing more and maybe getting a bit scrunched for tournaments in smaller venues why this wouldn’t work?   Does anyone know what size mat Penn State uses?  I saw a bit of the Nebraska match and to me the mat (and the circle) looked bigger than I’ve seen for other duals.  

[Caveira]

1 minute ago, JimmySpeaks said:

 IMO taking the standard mat size from 42x42 to 52x52 while leaving the circle the same size or maybe slightly bigger would remove most of the edge play.  Too often wrestler A has his toe in the circle trying to complete a takedown and wrestler B will drop to the splits and toe tap or hand touch out of bounds. In addition add a stall call to any wrestler (on offense or defense) that has both feet leave the circle.  Other than the mat costing more and maybe getting a bit scrunched for tournaments in smaller venues why this wouldn’t work?   Does anyone know what size mat Penn State uses?  I saw a bit of the Nebraska match and to me the mat (and the circle) looked bigger than I’ve seen for other duals.  

Problem isn’t  regular Iowa used to have the biggest mat on earth?   Maybe they still do I dunno. 
 

No gym has the room for 8 huge mats for NCAAs.   The ncaa mats seem tiny 

i have an idea. Let’s ha e a push out rule or step out rule on tiny mats.  What could go wrong game planning that 

[JimmySpeaks]

1 hour ago, Caveira said:

Problem isn’t  regular Iowa used to have the biggest mat on earth?   Maybe they still do I dunno. 
 

No gym has the room for 8 huge mats for NCAAs.   The ncaa mats seem tiny 

i have an idea. Let’s ha e a push out rule or step out rule on tiny mats.  What could go wrong game planning that 

NCAAs are in arenas not gyms.  So are the conference Tournaments.  The early season opens would be a problem. 

[Greenwave]

I know this has been mentioned before and would be hard to enforce but let me say it any way.  One of the reasons takedowns have decreased is because the ability of the wrestlers to drop to an ankle pushing for a scramble situation or stalemate.  Sometimes it is so obvious that the wrestler is just pushing for a stalemate.  Now this would be an enforcement nightmare as each ref can interpret it the wrong way.  Or is it just good defense or could it be like fleeing the mat?

[He Rassle]

15 hours ago, Nak21 said:

Maybe this goes back to stalling. And it needing to be called more. I HATE the funk, the scrambles etc. But it’s the modern way. Everyone does it. And it leads to a lot of stalemates. I’m sure someone could run numbers of shots vs successful shots in the modern funk era.

Maybe we need draconian measures, a point of emphasis, wrestler A is shooting and wrestler B is just diving for the ankle and holding on for a stalemate. Maybe you get to do that once and second time is a stall along with the stalemate and fresh start.

I like offense. I wanna see guys score. I don’t have any answers, my idea is probably garbage and smarter Wrestling minds will tear it up. But it’d be nice to see something, reward attacks and punish lack of attacking (the stalling mentality) AND the funky scrambles that are just holding on for stalemates (the stalling technique).

To your first paragraph I've always said, no way. But only because I hate subjectivity. Your second paragraph convinces me: Second ankle grab is a warning, third a point. Like, if you can scramble, good for you. But you better take some shots or re-shots.  I'm pretty sure a lot of people would object because they love the funk.

[Gene Mills Fan]

most shots are not taken in fear: that they don't finish; the stalemate is not called; and they lose all their arm strength in the first period trying to hang on.  I see a lot of the aggressors not getting the stalemate especially at end of period. The shot will be taken and there is the standoff  for 30 seconds and ref says wrestle thru it because there's only 15 seconds left. the aggressor then losses his grip and gives up three or gasses his arms because all of a sudden its a prolonged stalemate situation because ref is going to let them wrestle because there is short time left an eternity to hold on for.

Edited February 2 by Gene Mills Fan

[The Kid]

15 hours ago, forkemaz said:

I was born in the 80s. Viewership is up, participation is up. If you weigh girls programs against lost male d1 programs im not sure how much has been lost. The state of modern atheltics and universites is a different matter than if wrestling itself is declining. 

Where is participation up?  There's multiple forfeits per dual meet.  Sometimes up to half the matches are forfeits.  The jv teams used to have better participation in the PIAA. Even our good teams are forfeiting weights?  The teams are lucky to have 20 kids total on their rosters. 

We also lost 71 Division 1 wrestling programs in the last 50 years.  How can  be considered "growth" is beyond logic and reasoning. 

Edited February 2 by The Kid

[AgaveMaria]

One solution.

A point for the opponent if you don't try at least four different takedown moves the first period.

Double leg, Low single, Ankle pick, Firemans Carry.

After the first period if you missed an actual attempt at any, the opponent gets a point on his side. So, if no one does anything they start the second 4-4. See - lots of scoring!

 

[Pinnacle]

1 minute ago, AgaveMaria said:

One solution.

A point for the opponent if you don't try at least four different takedown moves the first period.

Double leg, Low single, Ankle pick, Firemans Carry.

After the first period if you missed an actual attempt at any, the opponent gets a point on his side. So, if no one does anything they start the second 4-4. See - lots of scoring!

 

 

 

[forkemaz]

1 hour ago, The Kid said:

Where is participation up?  There's multiple forfeits per dual meet.  Sometimes up to half the matches are forfeits.  The jv teams used to have better participation in the PIAA. Even our good teams are forfeiting weights?  The teams are lucky to have 20 kids total on their rosters. 

We also lost 71 Division 1 wrestling programs in the last 50 years.  How can  be considered "growth" is beyond logic and reasoning. 

Ground hogs day joke? Why post this again?