It is too hard to score in neutral in today's D1 wrestling.

[BruceyB]

We talk about it dual after dual..

"Team X only score Y amount of takedowns"

"Too many matches are 0-0 after the first"

"Not enough offense"

I have fought against the idea that I'm about to express here, because I love folkstyle wrestling and am reluctant to make major tweaks to the sport. However.. I am starting to think that a change is 100% needed and will have to come at some point, it's just a matter of how long the sport puts off the inevitable.

With the current level of D1 wrestling and how much easier it often is to get to a stalemate position for the defensive wrestler than it is to finish for the offensive wrestler, I think it's time to discuss more ways to benefit the aggressive and attacking wrestler in neutral on the scoreboard than simply completing takedowns. 

One example of this happened today between Echemendia and Vega. Echemendia was in very deep several times and it looked like a takedown was imminent multiple times. Despite his offensive output and near scoring sequences, the match was tied 1-1 in the closing seconds. Echemendia gets in on another shot the initiated, and Vega is able to counter for the 4-1 lead with 3 seconds left. I can't recall a single committed offensive attack from Vega in the match.

I have long fought against the idea of a push-out in folkstyle, but if it means we more often get the attacking and offensive wrestler in a better position to win the match, I think I am beginning that change my view. With how easy it is in folk to create stalemates, extend scrambles, and prevent action from happening with little to no negative consequences, I think it may be time to remove the crutch of OOB as another escape rope for the wrestler under pressure and/or attack. 

I am not meaning for this to be an argument about push-out but a discussion on ways to reward the offensive wrestlers to create some level of separation even if they aren't able to secure a traditional takedown. I fear that if we don't create more ways to reward the offensive wrestler we will continue to see more and more 1-1 matches where lesser wrestlers are mitigating action for the first 6 minutes hoping to steal the match late.. again.. IE: Vega vs Echemendia today.

[Caveira]

Folkstyle wrestling doesn’t need fixing.  It’s more popular than freestyle here.  It’s more fun to watch than freestyle here.   More wrestlers like folkstyle.  More fans like it here 

your now just going to decide more matches by pushout and then people will whine about that.  The product is fine.    When I wrestled in college in the mid 90s plenty of first periods went 0-0

wby is that.   They’re not tired yet.  And they’re great athletes.   Watch it.  Love it.  The product doesn’t need fixing 

it’s the best time in our sports history.  We can basically watch every college match.  This is maybe why people notice stuff differently.  Back in the day you maybe got half the ncaa finals and nothing else. Maybe pbs in Iowa too.   Now your seeing the nitty gritty sport that you didn’t see years ago 

Edited February 1 by Caveira

[Dark Energy]

I am on board with your thinking BruceyB.  I may be more in favor for OOB point than you.  The degree the edge is played, and allowed, is frankly sad.

Edited February 1 by Dark Energy

[Pinnacle]

You have to shoot to score. 

Too many never shoot. 

[Caveira]

2 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

You have to shoot to score. 

Too many never shoot. 

They are not shooting early because the opponent  is still not tired and is holding position well.  Why is there more scoring in the nfl nba European soccer and late in bball games.   It’s when people are tired and make physical or mental mistakes 

Edited February 1 by Caveira

[Dark Energy]

Logical.  So … let’s just have both wrestlers do a hard workout before each match.  Something like jog 1 mile in less than 7 seconds and then 75 push-ups.  Then get out there.  I jest … but ….

[BruceyB]

14 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Folkstyle wrestling doesn’t need fixing.  It’s more popular than freestyle here.  It’s more fun to watch than freestyle here.   More wrestlers like folkstyle.  More fans like it here 

your now just going to decide more matches by pushout and then people will whine about that.  The product is fine.    When I wrestled in college in the mid 90s plenty of first periods went 0-0

wby is that.   They’re not tired yet.  And they’re great athletes.   Watch it.  Love it.  The product doesn’t need fixing 

it’s the best time in our sports history.  We can basically watch every college match.  This is maybe why people notice stuff differently.  Back in the day you maybe got half the ncaa finals and nothing else. Maybe pbs in Iowa too.   Now your seeing the nitty gritty sport that you didn’t see years ago 

The argument that people are only complaining now because we can actually watch the product is really all that needs to be said. People didn't complain 20 years ago because they didn't just watch one of the most anticipated duals of the year where there were only two wrestlers that scored in the first period. When you can just skip over 1/3 of every match and likely not miss any scoring, that's not good, my friend.

[Caveira]

8 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

The argument that people are only complaining now because we can actually watch the product is really all that needs to be said. People didn't complain 20 years ago because they didn't just watch one of the most anticipated duals of the year where there were only two wrestlers that scored in the first period. When you can just skip over 1/3 of every match and likely not miss any scoring, that's not good, my friend.

Wrestlers saw the product 20 years ago.  It’s asinine to expect high scoring first periods with d1 athletes who are not tired.  Not sweaty.   Etc.    this is wrestling not a video game.  
 

the Mcllravy brand’s colat nolf messenbrink ironside Zain types  are so rare because they are that rare 

to assume you can create that type of athlete with rule changes is silly.  And it won’t work.  Why would wrestling be better if the period ended 2-1 on pushouts vs 0-0 and no td.   Sumo pushouts will not reinvent Lincoln mcllravy.   
 

we increased the value of a td by 50% to make scoring go up.  And predictably it did not.   Wrestling is hard.   Take downs in d1 are hard 

why are the first period or round in mma less entertaining than the third ?   Why are there more late knockouts.   Same shit man. 

Edited February 1 by Caveira

[forkemaz]

10 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

Logical.  So … let’s just have both wrestlers do a hard workout before each match.  Something like jog 1 mile in less than 7 seconds and then 75 push-ups.  Then get out there.  I jest … but ….

Or make the match longer?

[AgaveMaria]

Watching matches like Penn State vs Iowa we see 'stall to avoid takedowns' vs 'take them down no matter what' attitudes.

When we see Penn State a match two ago with about 320 takedowns to 16 for the opposition - do you really think we don't have enough takedowns? Or is is just that they aren't distributed more evenly between teams.

We can add THE Ohio State University here alongside Penn State. A few other top tier teams seem to be doing OK.

Maybe a tweak or two as in calling stalling, backing off/fleeing the mat and 'inaction' or whatever can be made. 

I do find it frustrating when one wrestler is pushing all the action & taking some shots while his opponent is basically blocking everything - without trying to use the opponents action as a lever to unleash their counter wrestling attack. 

So, maybe push harder to call against/penalize those who are holding/backing for much of the match?

[forkemaz]

10 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

The argument that people are only complaining now because we can actually watch the product is really all that needs to be said. People didn't complain 20 years ago because they didn't just watch one of the most anticipated duals of the year where there were only two wrestlers that scored in the first period. When you can just skip over 1/3 of every match and likely not miss any scoring, that's not good, my friend.

This is a common problem in combat sports. The "feeling out process" id prefer more periods and longer matches to a push out. Or a total redesign of the boundary over push out as well.

[Kov88]

Wrestlers’ defense and scrambling are becoming better… idk if some wrestlers just rely on their defense to get a score and know they won’t lose the match on stalling (unless your facing a wrestler like MM who shoots 45 times a match)

Edited February 1 by Kov88

[Scouts Honor]

do you think that the guy who took the shot ever goes for a stalemate?

or even more common, the guy who took a shot who gets countered goes for a stalemate?

it's wrestling.

it's hard.

these are the best guys. it's how it is.

 

[Nak21]

Maybe this goes back to stalling. And it needing to be called more. I HATE the funk, the scrambles etc. But it’s the modern way. Everyone does it. And it leads to a lot of stalemates. I’m sure someone could run numbers of shots vs successful shots in the modern funk era.

Maybe we need draconian measures, a point of emphasis, wrestler A is shooting and wrestler B is just diving for the ankle and holding on for a stalemate. Maybe you get to do that once and second time is a stall along with the stalemate and fresh start.

I like offense. I wanna see guys score. I don’t have any answers, my idea is probably garbage and smarter Wrestling minds will tear it up. But it’d be nice to see something, reward attacks and punish lack of attacking (the stalling mentality) AND the funky scrambles that are just holding on for stalemates (the stalling technique).

[forkemaz]

4 minutes ago, Nak21 said:

Maybe this goes back to stalling. And it needing to be called more. I HATE the funk, the scrambles etc. But it’s the modern way. Everyone does it. And it leads to a lot of stalemates. I’m sure someone could run numbers of shots vs successful shots in the modern funk era.

Maybe we need draconian measures, a point of emphasis, wrestler A is shooting and wrestler B is just diving for the ankle and holding on for a stalemate. Maybe you get to do that once and second time is a stall along with the stalemate and fresh start.

I like offense. I wanna see guys score. I don’t have any answers, my idea is probably garbage and smarter Wrestling minds will tear it up. But it’d be nice to see something, reward attacks and punish lack of attacking (the stalling mentality) AND the funky scrambles that are just holding on for stalemates (the stalling technique).

Why not just remove the stalemate? Wrestle through all positions.

[Caveira]

12 minutes ago, Nak21 said:

Maybe this goes back to stalling. And it needing to be called more. I HATE the funk, the scrambles etc. But it’s the modern way. Everyone does it. And it leads to a lot of stalemates. I’m sure someone could run numbers of shots vs successful shots in the modern funk era.

Maybe we need draconian measures, a point of emphasis, wrestler A is shooting and wrestler B is just diving for the ankle and holding on for a stalemate. Maybe you get to do that once and second time is a stall along with the stalemate and fresh start.

I like offense. I wanna see guys score. I don’t have any answers, my idea is probably garbage and smarter Wrestling minds will tear it up. But it’d be nice to see something, reward attacks and punish lack of attacking (the stalling mentality) AND the funky scrambles that are just holding on for stalemates (the stalling technique).

I mean they literally made the take down 50% more and the near fall 33+% more.   The + is for less swipes for more points.    All to make scoring happen more.  It was easy to predict it wouldn’t change shit and it didn’t.   
 

as competitors get nearer and nearer to one another in talent scores get closer and closer.   
 

It’s pretty simple.  You don’t see hs or kids level scoring because all these kids are way tougher.   Multiple state champs ride the bench and mid level programs.  
 

y’all are asking for Xbox style scoring.   It isn’t realistic at this level. 
 

replacing real take downs with watered down fake points will water down the whole sport.    Love the sport for what it is.   It’s already a great sport.  It’s why we love it 
 

 

[BIGTENFANBOY]

They tried to make takedowns easier 10 years ago with the no reaction time.. thankfully they brought reaction time back

[The Kid]

2 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

I am on board with your thinking BruceyB.  I may be more in favor for OOB point than you.  The degree the edge is played, and allowed, is frankly sad.

It has to change or the sport will continue to decline.

The forced stalemate is stalling. But, somehow its rewarded with a restart.

[Caveira]

Just now, BIGTENFANBOY said:

They tried to make takedowns easier 10 years ago with the no reaction time.. thankfully they brought reaction time back

Maybe make it based on dice rolls … or larping or something.    Maybe we only let defenders use one arm to defend so these pesky scrambles don’t happen.   Shit.  Maybe don’t use your legs.   You can’t use your legs to defend sounds good.   

[Caveira]

6 minutes ago, The Kid said:

It has to change or the sport will continue to decline.

The forced stalemate is stalling. But, somehow its rewarded with a restart.

The sport isn’t declining.   But freestyle is.   Greco is all but dead.   If not already dead (this country)

Edited February 2 by Caveira

[forkemaz]

3 minutes ago, The Kid said:

It has to change or the sport will continue to decline.

The forced stalemate is stalling. But, somehow its rewarded with a restart.

The sport is as big as it has been in my lifetime. Its not on the decline.

[Wrestej]

2 hours ago, Pinnacle said:

You have to shoot to score. 

Too many never shoot. 

No, somebody has to shoot.  In today’s wrestling seems like the guy who doesn’t shoot and plays defense scores more often.  They either is the corner and becomes a scramble or stalemate or go behind.

[The Kid]

6 minutes ago, forkemaz said:

The sport is as big as it has been in my lifetime. Its not on the decline.

Where? 

The coverage is better and the elite wrestlers are better. No doubt. But, the sport is in decline. Girls wrestling has increased though.

The elite high school guys are awesome, how about your local non power schools? So many forfeits and pins. There aren't any fans there, except their parents and friends. 

Not to mention the number of D1 colleges who have dropped wrestling since 1970 is staggering. Yeah, title 9.

I honestly don't know how much longer it will be before we see D1 wrestling with under 50 teams.  Especially with the poaching and open market NIL.

 

[Caveira]

1 minute ago, The Kid said:

Where? 

The coverage is better and the elite wrestlers are better. No doubt. But, the sport is in decline. Girls wrestling has increased though.

The elite high school guys are awesome, how about your local non power schools? So many forfeits and pins. There aren't any fans there, except their parents and friends. 

Not to mention the number of D1 colleges who have dropped wrestling since 1970 is staggering. Yeah, title 9.

I honestly don't know how much longer it will be before we see D1 wrestling with under 50 teams.  Especially with the poaching and open market NIL.

 

Scoring rule changes are going to take care of nil and poaching ?

[The Kid]

19 minutes ago, Caveira said:

The sport isn’t declining.   But freestyle is.   Greco is all but dead.   If not already dead (this country)

Greco is too tough. You can roll over a pin yourself when you're tired.

Freestyle is at an all time in the USA.  Its was a golden era with Burroughs leading the way. Snyder. Dake. Taylor. All multiple times world champions.

Forrest. Duke. Blaze. Bassett, Miller etc.  Hard-core freestyle kids.  It's awesome to see this happen in our country.   We will surpass Russis and Iran. Which was nearly inconceivable a decade ago.