Bernie Sanders capitalistic anti-capitalist

[jross]

4 hours ago, El Luchador said:

You most certainly can debate it. Forcing price controls onto Doctors doesn't result in quality care. The biggest reason medical prices are out of control is massive government regulation.  Forcing hospitals to give care to people who have no intention of paying for it and Forcing everyone else to foot the bill is ridiculous. Health care is in terrible shape because of the government.  The more they do to control it the worse it gets.

I'd wager these as top contributors

• Health care is incented to treat sick people rather than to prevent people from getting sick.
• And increasing number of citizens have more chronic illness due to obesity and age.
• Customers (patients) have limited transparency to what the cost of service is until after they receive treatment.
• Insurance pays the bill rather than the customer.  Customers may not care or know what the price is since they are paying a small portion of it.

 

[mspart]

15 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

You can debate it, but it is self-evident. The share of GDP we spend on health care is fifty percent higher than our peers, who all have single payer systems.  Medicaid administrative costs are a fraction of medical insurance administrative costs.  The ridiculous cost of health care is caused by the pursuit of margins on the payer and provider sides, compounded by the lack of anything resembling a free market in between.  People can't shop medical services and the actual cost is almost irrelevant.

Hello there Plasi,

Single payer systems are not that great.   Canada for instance.     https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wait-times-for-health-care-in-canada-2022

From referral by a general practitioner to consultation with a specialist. The waiting time in this segment increased from 11.1 weeks in 2021 to 12.6 weeks in 2022. This wait time is 242% longer than in 1993, when it was 3.7 weeks. The shortest waits for specialist consultations are in Ontario (10.1 weeks) while the longest occur in Prince Edward Island (41.7 weeks).

From the consultation with a specialist to the point at which the patient receives treatment. The waiting time in this segment increased from 14.5 weeks in 2021 to 14.8 weeks this year. This wait time is 164% longer than in 1993 when it was 5.6 weeks, and 6.7 weeks longer than what physicians consider to be clinically “reasonable” (8.1 weeks). The shortest specialist-to-treatment waits are found in Ontario (10.2 weeks), while the longest are in Manitoba (25.4 weeks).

Your point about it being cheaper is because they have made it impossible to get anything done in a timely manner.   You either expire, you go to USA, or you just forget about it, or you wait a long time.   None of which is a selling point if you are the person with those options. 

mspart

[mspart]

15 hours ago, jross said:

I'd wager these as top contributors

• Health care is incented to treat sick people rather than to prevent people from getting sick.
• And increasing number of citizens have more chronic illness due to obesity and age.
• Customers (patients) have limited transparency to what the cost of service is until after they receive treatment.
• Insurance pays the bill rather than the customer.  Customers may not care or know what the price is since they are paying a small portion of it.

 

I'd say points 2-4 are completely valid.   Point 1, I'm not sure about.   In between wellness visits you could get covid, or flu, or pneumonia, etc.   You might need hospitalization and/or perhaps a grave site.   I would agree with Point 1 to a point.   But it is very hard to predict the future.  And it is expensive enough to go to the Doctor that most people will wait until quite sick. 

mspart

[Plasmodium]

3 hours ago, mspart said:

Hello there Plasi,

Single payer systems are not that great.   Canada for instance.     https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wait-times-for-health-care-in-canada-2022

From referral by a general practitioner to consultation with a specialist. The waiting time in this segment increased from 11.1 weeks in 2021 to 12.6 weeks in 2022. This wait time is 242% longer than in 1993, when it was 3.7 weeks. The shortest waits for specialist consultations are in Ontario (10.1 weeks) while the longest occur in Prince Edward Island (41.7 weeks).

From the consultation with a specialist to the point at which the patient receives treatment. The waiting time in this segment increased from 14.5 weeks in 2021 to 14.8 weeks this year. This wait time is 164% longer than in 1993 when it was 5.6 weeks, and 6.7 weeks longer than what physicians consider to be clinically “reasonable” (8.1 weeks). The shortest specialist-to-treatment waits are found in Ontario (10.2 weeks), while the longest are in Manitoba (25.4 weeks).

Your point about it being cheaper is because they have made it impossible to get anything done in a timely manner.   You either expire, you go to USA, or you just forget about it, or you wait a long time.   None of which is a selling point if you are the person with those options. 

mspart

Canada is a natural comparison.  However, they compare poorly to all of our peers in this department.  Despite spending so much more, the US doesn't compare all that favorably.

Canada has a longer life expectancy, which may lend credence to @jross point 1.  Cuba, which is not an economic peer, also has a longer life expectancy.

[mspart]

I prefer a system that is more responsive to the timing of an issue that comes up.   A single payer system will not do that because that is how they keep costs (and therefore taxes) down.  Single Payer system has as its incentive to drive costs down, meaning procedures are down, doctor visits are down, specialist visits are down.   Does that sound like a properly run system to you?   Not to me.   Is that serving the person that is not healthy?  No.  

Now I admit that folks in the USA eat terribly, treat their bodies horribly, and pay the price in longevity.  But in general, when we need to see a doctor, we can without much delay.   Of course if you have insurance or are rich.   Those with no insurance wait for sure.   But with Obamacare, that is all fixed right?

mspart

[Plasmodium]

4 minutes ago, mspart said:

I prefer a system that is more responsive to the timing of an issue that comes up.   A single payer system will not do that because that is how they keep costs (and therefore taxes) down.  Single Payer system has as its incentive to drive costs down, meaning procedures are down, doctor visits are down, specialist visits are down.   Does that sound like a properly run system to you?   Not to me.   Is that serving the person that is not healthy?  No.  

Now I admit that folks in the USA eat terribly, treat their bodies horribly, and pay the price in longevity.  But in general, when we need to see a doctor, we can without much delay.   Of course if you have insurance or are rich.   Those with no insurance wait for sure.   But with Obamacare, that is all fixed right?

mspart

We do not outperform our peers.  Your logic certainly applies equally to an entity that exists solely to make money. 

 The proportion of uninsured has declined since Obamacare was enacted.  Despite the best efforts of many.

[psikeyhackr]

Funny how neither the Left nor the Right has advocated mandatory accounting/finance in the schools since forever. Too difficult a concept for people who can tell everyone else how to run the socio-economic system.

[Plasmodium]

Just now, psikeyhackr said:

Funny how neither the Left nor the Right has advocated mandatory accounting/finance in the schools since forever. Too difficult a concept for people who can tell everyone else how to run the socio-economic system.

I have!!!

[psikeyhackr]

1 minute ago, Plasmodium said:

I have!!!

Are you on the Left or the Right?

[BerniePragle]

4 minutes ago, psikeyhackr said:

Are you on the Left or the Right?

There are other choices.

[Plasmodium]

7 minutes ago, psikeyhackr said:

Are you on the Left or the Right?

In the US, I am a rabid extreme left communist bent on the total destruction of the republic itself.  In any other member of the G20, I am a boring centrist.

[psikeyhackr]

4 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

In the US, I am a rabid extreme left communist bent on the total destruction of the republic itself.  In any other member of the G20, I am a boring centrist.

Americans are mostly retards.  Except for their nukes and their guns they are hardly worth paying attention to.  Oh, and they can shoot down balloons, a new talent.

[Plasmodium]

Just now, psikeyhackr said:

Americans are mostly retards.  Except for their nukes and their guns they are hardly worth paying attention to.  Oh, and they can shoot down balloons, a new talent.

That word has fallen way out of favor.

[psikeyhackr]

Just now, Plasmodium said:

That word has fallen way out of favor.

"retards"?

I'm over 60, is there a more awesome substitute?

[GreatWhiteNorth]

46 minutes ago, psikeyhackr said:

"retards"?

I'm over 60, is there a more awesome substitute?

Is being over 60 your excuse for posting purposely like a 'jerk'?

[El Luchador]

1 hour ago, psikeyhackr said:

Funny how neither the Left nor the Right has advocated mandatory accounting/finance in the schools since forever. Too difficult a concept for people who can tell everyone else how to run the socio-economic system.

Education is lacking a lot more than just accounting and economics.  

[psikeyhackr]

18 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Is being over 60 your excuse for posting purposely like a 'jerk'?

You mean there is nothing more awesome than "retard"?

"Awesome" wasn't awesome when I was less than 20.

[psikeyhackr]

17 hours ago, El Luchador said:

Education is lacking a lot more than just accounting and economics.  

What do you think is more than accounting and economics considering that economists have been ignoring the annual  depreciation of durable consumer goods for 70 years while planned obsolescence has been happening more and more.

There were 200,000,000 cars in the US in 1994. How many of those are running today? Where did the depreciation go? And if we did not engage in planned obsolescence would our climate and pollution problems be as bad?

[El Luchador]

1 hour ago, psikeyhackr said:

What do you think is more than accounting and economics considering that economists have been ignoring the annual  depreciation of durable consumer goods for 70 years while planned obsolescence has been happening more and more.

There were 200,000,000 cars in the US in 1994. How many of those are running today? Where did the depreciation go? And if we did not engage in planned obsolescence would our climate and pollution problems be as bad?

Civics is no longer taught.  Many people have no idea how the government works, or what their rights are. Thay don't understand the limitations of government, and they don't understand how we got our government.

[jross]

On 2/7/2023 at 2:38 PM, mspart said:

I'd say points 2-4 are completely valid.   Point 1, I'm not sure about.   In between wellness visits you could get covid, or flu, or pneumonia, etc.   You might need hospitalization and/or perhaps a grave site.   I would agree with Point 1 to a point.   But it is very hard to predict the future.  And it is expensive enough to go to the Doctor that most people will wait until quite sick. 

mspart

At my last company we focused on sick prevention through incentives

• $1000 off insurance by testing / certifying as a non smoker
• ...BMI below obesity
• ...blood lab results
• ...daily exercise
• ...wellness visits
• ...flu shots, etc.
• ...taking health education classes provided by the company, including cooking and nutrition
• ...dentist twice a year, annual eye exam, health visits to screen from cancer, etc. to catch things early

We were self-insured, had a free-to-employee primary physician clinic on site, free chiropractic clinic on-site, and a dirt cheap pharmacy on site. 

We copied many ideas from "The Innovator's Prescription: A Disruptive Solution for Health Care" written by Clayton Christensen with Jason Hwang and Jerome Grossman. 

I believe we had evidence that promoting health and wellness reduced the need for costly medical interventions and treatments, and lowered the overall burden of disease and illness.

[mspart]

3 hours ago, psikeyhackr said:

What do you think is more than accounting and economics considering that economists have been ignoring the annual  depreciation of durable consumer goods for 70 years while planned obsolescence has been happening more and more.

There were 200,000,000 cars in the US in 1994. How many of those are running today? Where did the depreciation go? And if we did not engage in planned obsolescence would our climate and pollution problems be as bad?

Perhaps basic math and science skills would help with understanding the accounting and economics?   Just saying.

mspart

[GreatWhiteNorth]

6 hours ago, psikeyhackr said:

You mean there is nothing more awesome than "retard"?

"Awesome" wasn't awesome when I was less than 20.

Complete nonsense. More bot posts. These are getting tiresome.

[BerniePragle]

3 hours ago, jross said:

At my last company we focused on sick prevention through incentives

• $1000 off insurance by testing / certifying as a non smoker
• ...BMI below obesity
• ...blood lab results
• ...daily exercise
• ...wellness visits
• ...flu shots, etc.
• ...taking health education classes provided by the company, including cooking and nutrition
• ...dentist twice a year, annual eye exam, health visits to screen from cancer, etc. to catch things early

We were self-insured, had a free-to-employee primary physician clinic on site, free chiropractic clinic on-site, and a dirt cheap pharmacy on site. 

We copied many ideas from "The Innovator's Prescription: A Disruptive Solution for Health Care" written by Clayton Christensen with Jason Hwang and Jerome Grossman. 

I believe we had evidence that promoting health and wellness reduced the need for costly medical interventions and treatments, and lowered the overall burden of disease and illness.

I don't know if you've ever heard of the long since gone Endicott Johnson shoes.  There is an awful lot more to the story than this, but here's a little:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_F._Johnson

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endicott_Johnson_Corporation

An amazing story about an amazing man and company.

[BerniePragle]

3 hours ago, mspart said:

Perhaps basic math and science skills would help with understanding the accounting and economics?   Just saying.

mspart

The 3Rs would be a good start.  Your science suggestion would also provide much needed logic and critical thinking skills.  I know it sounds negative, but this would require a 179 degree turn for our current school administrations and curriculum.  (Notice I am giving the some slight credit.)

[El Luchador]

Critical thinking may be the biggest need in education.