65kg 2028 we need people to grow!

[boconnell]

3 hours ago, Winners Circle said:

I highlighted that to show that this weight is consistently the toughest weight in the world, and I don't think anyone would argue that. So yes, I think it is pretty relevant. 

But without looking at who did or didn't win medals for us, there is zero context and zero relevance.  Our next 65 KG guys are very different than the last ones and will compete in different 65 KG weight classes against different opponents.  

You mention we have 1 gold in that stretch.  It's Bill Zaddick who is not close to the best American in this weight, but had a good draw and a good day.  That's because he wasn't competing against the most consistently tough weight class in the world.  He was competing against the 2006 66KG field.  It didn't matter how good that weight usually was, it mattered who was there that day.  Blaze and Forest won't compete against the guys of the past 25 years.  They will compete mostly against the guys they've been competing against and the u20/u17 guys who preceded and followed them.

[boconnell]

3 hours ago, Lucho said:

I guess that is true. It's just a shame as there are so many phenomenal athletes that won't be able to showcase themselves if it gets removed from the olympics. I personally enjoy both styles equally but I think I'm in the minority here. If greco gets removed from the olympics, the sport will die. Apart from Iran, I dont think any other country will even bother sending proper teams to compete. It will just make freestyle much more competitive which isn't the worse either tbh. It's one of those things that sounds good on paper but is quite difficult to pull off in reality. It's only been kept somewhat alive possible because of the freak athletes who compete in it.

I'm not in favor of its removal.  I doubt it's removal gives more weight classes to men's and women's FS.  I think removing Greco is just a sad day for wrestling.  I was just pointing out that a great sport can be ruined by a lack of rules innovation, and at a high level greco has been ruined.

[Winners Circle]

15 minutes ago, boconnell said:

But without looking at who did or didn't win medals for us, there is zero context and zero relevance.  Our next 65 KG guys are very different than the last ones and will compete in different 65 KG weight classes against different opponents.  

You mention we have 1 gold in that stretch.  It's Bill Zaddick who is not close to the best American in this weight, but had a good draw and a good day.  That's because he wasn't competing against the most consistently tough weight class in the world.  He was competing against the 2006 66KG field.  It didn't matter how good that weight usually was, it mattered who was there that day.  Blaze and Forest won't compete against the guys of the past 25 years.  They will compete mostly against the guys they've been competing against and the u20/u17 guys who preceded and followed them.

Zain (multiple times), Nick Lee, Yianni (also medaled once), Stieber, JO, Metcalf (multiple times), Doug Schwab (multiple times), Kolat (multiple times), are among those who have failed to medal. I'd argue that those guys are all pretty good. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

19 hours ago, boconnell said:

Greco is fun to do.  At lower and middle levels it's fun to watch.  

At high levels it's 100% unwatchable.  Nobody can score.  It's a series of weird and mostly arbitrary ref calls deciding most matches.  If football never invented the forward pass and they played running game only with modern athletes and every game was 0-0, the sport would be gone.  Instead they figured out rules that allowed scoring.  Greco cannot do that.  They've tried and tried and tried.  The sport cannot survive because nobody can ever score.

Good analogy. Greco also sounds really cool on paper, esp to casuals, but doesn't meet the expectations of most at the highest levels.

[Truzzcat]

I've always wondered if getting rid of Greco would increase the popularity of Judo. I personally would watch judo any day of the week at a high level. Greco at the highest level almost feels like a chess match. Who can do enough to not get put down first, but I may have a poor grasp of the sport. I know there are people who enjoy it and I don't want to disparage something I do not understand to the fullest extent, but I would not be sad if it was done away with for more freestyle weights.

[Ragu]

Idk why people are under the assumption that if the Olympics was to get rid of GR that it would equate to more FS weights. They would simply put in a new sport. Get rid of wrestling to add wrestling? Don’t think so

[CHROMEBIRD]

3 hours ago, Ragu said:

Idk why people are under the assumption that if the Olympics was to get rid of GR that it would equate to more FS weights. They would simply put in a new sport. Get rid of wrestling to add wrestling? Don’t think so

I agree that if the Olympics wanted to get rid of Greco the spots wouldn't be reallocated to the other styles, but that's not exactly what we're talking about here. Rather, if the UWW wanted to use GR as a bargaining chip, it could propose cutting Greco in exchange for 9 weight classes for MFS & WW with 16-person brackets or perhaps 10 weight classes with 12- or 13-person brackets. 

Current 6-6-6 (MFS-GR-WW) w/ brackets of 16: 96 competitors per style, 288 total, 72 medals 
Propose 10-0-10 w/ brackets of 16: 160 competitors per style, 320 total, 80 medals
Propose 9-0-9 w/ brackets of 16: 144 competitors per style, 288 total, 72 medals 
Propose 10-0-10 w/ brackets of 12: 120 competitors per style, 240 total, 80 medals
Propose 10-0-10 w/ brackets of 13: 130 competitors per style, 260 total, 80 medals
Propose 10-0-10 w/ brackets of 14: 140 competitors per style, 280 total, 80 medals

A 9 weight, 16-person bracket would be no change in the eyes of the IOC, and a 10 weight 12-person bracket would reduce the size of the competitor pool (a key metric for the IOC) so much so that it would offset the 8 additional medals. 10 weights with 16- or 14-man brackets would likely be non-starters unless some other compromise was made (shorter matches, fewer medals, less time between matches & sessions).
 

[WhiteCloud]

Judo has 7 brackets of 64... plus mixed teams is a large bracket...

[Ragu]

Isn’t Greco internationally the more popular and participated in style?

[nhs67]

30 minutes ago, Ragu said:

Isn’t Greco internationally the more popular and participated in style?

The numbers show that they have more participants in overseas tournaments.

I think more popular would be the one that gets the most attention, which I think is still MFS worldwide.

[nhs67]

15 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

I agree that if the Olympics wanted to get rid of Greco the spots wouldn't be reallocated to the other styles, but that's not exactly what we're talking about here. Rather, if the UWW wanted to use GR as a bargaining chip, it could propose cutting Greco in exchange for 9 weight classes for MFS & WW with 16-person brackets or perhaps 10 weight classes with 12- or 13-person brackets. 

Current 6-6-6 (MFS-GR-WW) w/ brackets of 16: 96 competitors per style, 288 total, 72 medals 
Propose 10-0-10 w/ brackets of 16: 160 competitors per style, 320 total, 80 medals
Propose 9-0-9 w/ brackets of 16: 144 competitors per style, 288 total, 72 medals 
Propose 10-0-10 w/ brackets of 12: 120 competitors per style, 240 total, 80 medals
Propose 10-0-10 w/ brackets of 13: 130 competitors per style, 260 total, 80 medals
Propose 10-0-10 w/ brackets of 14: 140 competitors per style, 280 total, 80 medals

A 9 weight, 16-person bracket would be no change in the eyes of the IOC, and a 10 weight 12-person bracket would reduce the size of the competitor pool (a key metric for the IOC) so much so that it would offset the 8 additional medals. 10 weights with 16- or 14-man brackets would likely be non-starters unless some other compromise was made (shorter matches, fewer medals, less time between matches & sessions).
 

So... how is this?

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Not much change, but some change.