All this transgender athlete fuss lately. . .

[TNwrestling]

19 minutes ago, Idaho said:

LOL...this is dumb.  It's happening in female high school sports all over the country.  Bioglogical boys competing against biological girls in sports and smashing records. I have two daughters in sports and watch it all the time....and I LOVE women's sports - if it is actually women's sports. Don't come on here and claim we hate womens' sports because we don't want biological men competing against our daughters and sharing locker rooms. That's just dumb. Who is actually doing the bullying when a biological male is competing against a athletically marginalized group in biological women? 

 

You watch it all the time? How many times specifically have you watched boys compete against your daughters?

[Idaho]

28 minutes ago, TNwrestling said:

You watch it all the time? How many times specifically have you watched boys compete against your daughters?

If you follow the thread, I responded to "the people who have their panties in a bunch over this not only don’t watch women’s sports, they HATE women’s sports"   I watch women's sports all the time. Yes. Does it matter that I have watched them against my daughters specifically? Or that doesn't count? 

[Idaho]

33 minutes ago, BigRedFan said:

Can we have your definition of "biological boy" and "biological girl"?

(this should be fun!)

Born with a penis for a boy with XY chromosomes.... Born with vagina for girls with XX chromosomes. Not difficult. 8th grade science. 

[Idaho]

50 minutes ago, Tripnsweep said:

We've only had one instance of this happening at the high school level here. And it turned out to be bogus because the girl in question wasn't transgender at all. It was the parents of a player from a rival school that made the accusation because they didn't like seeing their daughters team lose. 

Aren't you from Washington? 

[BigRedFan]

7 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Born with a penis for a boy with XY chromosomes.... Born with vagina for girls with XX chromosomes. Not difficult. 8th grade science. 

Maybe you should have gotten more than an 8th grade science education.  Here's an instance where you really *should* "do yur reSeaRch."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2020/06/15/the-myth-of-biological-sex/

Quote

However, a DSD known as Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) leads some to have an X and Y chromosome, but physically appear to be girls.

Quote

The presence or lack of a penis is often thought of as another clear indicator of biological sex, but that’s not a decisive way to divide the sexes either. Some individuals are born with ambiguous genitalia and are not clearly male or female in genital appearance at birth. In fact, research indicates that about 2% of the population is born with these ambiguous traits. Those born with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH), for example, are chromosomally female but may have very masculinized genitalia. 

 

[Idaho]

1 minute ago, BigRedFan said:

Maybe you should have gotten more than an 8th grade science education.  Here's an instance where you really *should* "do yur reSeaRch."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2020/06/15/the-myth-of-biological-sex/

 

You asked a general question and got a general question...and now use a very specific examples of a very rare syndrome. Of course there are going to be very, very limited syndromes and other things that come up in the discussion.  Do you think that redefines the entire system of what a female or male is? 

So let's get right to the heart of it, what is your definition of male and female  and do you support biological males with a penis with xy chromosomes competing against girls born with a vagina and xx chromosomes? 

[mspart]

The effort to convert males to females, and females to male, (called the transexual movement) has nothing to do with androgeny.   Androgeny is a different thing.   To bring that into this discussion is intellectually dishonest because everyone knows what the subject of discussion is and that ain't it. 

Tripnsweep is from  AZ.    I am from WA and a boy just won the girls 400 meter state championship for the 2nd year in a row.  

Maybe the bigger question is why are there boys and girls sports in middle and high schools and men's and women's sports in the college level?   Why was this done?  And is it proper to then allow for boys that say they are girls to compete with girls and men who say they are women to compete with women?   Equally, is it proper to allow the opposite?

Bringing in androgeny is the last gasp of a lost cause.   That clearly is not the issue at hand.   Again, it is intellectually dishonest to even attempt to do so.  

mspart

 

[BAC]

Whenever the contentious issue of trans sports comes up, I like to bring up a wrestling example: Mack Beggs.  

Usually we hear about it in the context of bio men identifying as trans women, and competing in womens' sports. Although I personally think this is a nuanced issue, the political parties have made a blunt instrument out of it, and many states have passed laws requiring that kids must compete with the sex that aligns with your birth certificate, irrespective of gender identity.  Texas (unsurprisingly) is one such state.

Enter Mack Beggs.

Mack is a biological female.  At some point as a young child, Mack identified as male, and started to transition early on, taking (legal) hormones for muscle mass.  In high school, he wanted to compete on the men's team.  They wouldn't let him, so he filed a lawsuit, arguing it was unfair to himself (as he identified with men) as well as women that he competed against (as they were disadvantaged).  He lost.

So against his strong preference, Mack competed against girls, as his love of wrestling was too great to not compete at all.  And he absolutely slaughtered them, going undefeated winning the Texas state title in the girl's division in 2017 and 2018. There were lots of boos, but the ironic thing is that EVERYONE in the arena wanted Mack to compete against men.  Mack wanted that, his opponents wanted that, his coach wanted that, opposing coaches wanted that, fans wanted that.  The only people who did NOT want that were Texas politicians, who said no, you belong with the girls. Because, according to Texas politicians, the birth certificate is everything.

You can read about it here:  https://www.texastribune.org/2017/02/26/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-identifies-male-he-just-won-texas-stat/

As a postscript, Mack ended up wrestling in college at Life (NAIA), on the men's team.  He was in a Hulu documentary, and a recent interview is here:  https://www.thehiddenopponent.org/post/mack-beggs-the-trans-athlete-changing-the-game.

What I like about the Mack Beggs story is that it shows how narrow-minded the debate has become.  Most people are all-or-none:  either you compete based on your genetic sex, or you compete based on gender identity.  Hopefully, the Lia Thomas example, and various others, have shown how unfair it is to biological females to allow trans men to compete against biological women absent adequate safeguards for fairness. But Mack's story shows how the "bio sex is everything" crowd is shortsighted as well. 

I won't get into my own views on the issue (which are nuanced, and I doubt anyone cares).  But I don't think anyone with half a brain can read Mack's story and dispute that he should've been allowed to be on the men's team.

Edited June 9 by BAC

[1032004]

4 hours ago, Doublehalf said:

100% agree... this is such a non issue that's being blown up to create manufactured outrage... The amount of news coverage this gets by certain outlets in proportion to the amount of athletes this applies to is asinine. If those news outlets talked about school shootings or even rare diseases affecting people in proportion to this topic it would flood the airways 24/7.

 

Transgender fuss is only happening with a certain subset of people intent on getting 'news' from a few specific outlets...

It’s more than a few outlets.  This xpost, a photo of a high school softball team with no commentary, has received 46 million views because of all the outrage farmers.

 

 

It was also a major campaign talking point for many Republicans.  Riley Gaines is currently on the homepage of the HHS website!

https://www.hhs.gov
 

[Caveira]

1 hour ago, TNwrestling said:

You watch it all the time? How many times specifically have you watched boys compete against your daughters?

Transgender athlete wins, shares state honors, creating questions about inclusion 

LASHERICA THORNTON

June 1, 2025

REPUBLISH

Flanked by fourth-place winner Ellie McCuskey-Hay, left, and first-place winner Loren Webster, right, second-place winners AB Hernandez, center right, and Brooke White share the podium during a medal ceremony for the long jump at the California high school track and field championships in Clovis.

[Caveira]

1 hour ago, TNwrestling said:

You watch it all the time? How many times specifically have you watched boys compete against your daughters?

High school girls refuse to share podium with male, turn backs in protest

By Samantha Kamman, Christian Post Reporter
Tuesday, June 03, 2025

 

Two high school girls who competed at the Oregon track and field state championships refused to stand on the winners' podium with a trans-identifying athlete in protest of a male competing in the girls' high jump event on May 31, 2025.

[TNwrestling]

12 minutes ago, Caveira said:

 

Transgender athlete wins, shares state honors, creating questions about inclusion 

LASHERICA THORNTON

June 1, 2025

REPUBLISH

Flanked by fourth-place winner Ellie McCuskey-Hay, left, and first-place winner Loren Webster, right, second-place winners AB Hernandez, center right, and Brooke White share the podium during a medal ceremony for the long jump at the California high school track and field championships in Clovis.

 

11 minutes ago, Caveira said:

 

High school girls refuse to share podium with male, turn backs in protest

By Samantha Kamman, Christian Post Reporter
Tuesday, June 03, 2025

 

Two high school girls who competed at the Oregon track and field state championships refused to stand on the winners' podium with a trans-identifying athlete in protest of a male competing in the girls' high jump event on May 31, 2025.

So twice? In the entirety of high school track you've found two instances? 

[okokzach]

Just now, TNwrestling said:

So twice? In the entirety of high school track you've found two instances? 

The Oregon one, the athlete in question placed 5th and the protesters placed 3rd and 4th. 

The California one, the athlete in question had a three-way tie for 1st in high jump, shared 1st with another athlete in triple jump, and got 2nd in long jump. It doesn't look like anyone protested her though. 

[JoeyLee]

44 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

It’s more than a few outlets.  This xpost, a photo of a high school softball team with no commentary, has received 46 million views because of all the outrage farmers.

 

 

It was also a major campaign talking point for many Republicans.  Riley Gaines is currently on the homepage of the HHS website!

https://www.hhs.gov
 

This is in my neck of the woods. the pitcher is a biological male and pitched 21 consecutive shutout innings. pretty crazy stuff

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

55 minutes ago, BAC said:

Whenever the contentious issue of trans sports comes up, I like to bring up a wrestling example: Mack Beggs.  

Usually we hear about it in the context of bio men identifying as trans women, and competing in womens' sports. Although I personally think this is a nuanced issue, the political parties have made a blunt instrument out of it, and many states have passed laws requiring that kids must compete with the sex that aligns with your birth certificate, irrespective of gender identity.  Texas (unsurprisingly) is one such state.

Enter Mack Beggs.

Mack is a biological female.  At some point as a young child, Mack identified as male, and started to transition early on, taking (legal) hormones for muscle mass.  In high school, he wanted to compete on the men's team.  They wouldn't let him, so he filed a lawsuit, arguing it was unfair to himself (as he identified with men) as well as women that he competed against (as they were disadvantaged).  He lost.

So against his strong preference, Mack competed against girls, as his love of wrestling was too great to not compete at all.  And he absolutely slaughtered them, going undefeated winning the Texas state title in the girl's division in 2017 and 2018. There were lots of boos, but the ironic thing is that EVERYONE in the arena wanted Mack to compete against men.  Mack wanted that, his opponents wanted that, his coach wanted that, opposing coaches wanted that, fans wanted that.  The only people who did NOT want that were Texas politicians, who said no, you belong with the girls. Because, according to Texas politicians, the birth certificate is everything.

You can read about it here:  https://www.texastribune.org/2017/02/26/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-identifies-male-he-just-won-texas-stat/

As a postscript, Mack ended up wrestling in college at Life (NAIA), on the men's team.  He was in a Hulu documentary, and a recent interview is here:  https://www.thehiddenopponent.org/post/mack-beggs-the-trans-athlete-changing-the-game.

What I like about the Mack Beggs story is that it shows how narrow-minded the debate has become.  Most people are all-or-none:  either you compete based on your genetic sex, or you compete based on gender identity.  Hopefully, the Lia Thomas example, and various others, have shown how unfair it is to biological females to allow trans men to compete against biological women absent adequate safeguards for fairness. But Mack's story shows how the "bio sex is everything" crowd is shortsighted as well. 

I won't get into my own views on the issue (which are nuanced, and I doubt anyone cares).  But I don't think anyone with half a brain can read Mack's story and dispute that he should've been allowed to be on the men's team.

I do recall Mack having the opportunity to wrestle in the boys division at pre-season nationals and choosing to wrestle girls instead.  That does seem to go against Mack's story.  I am definitely not in favor of juiced up athletes wrestling in any division, but that is what we had in this case.  Tough situation.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 hour ago, Idaho said:

Born with a penis for a boy with XY chromosomes.... Born with vagina for girls with XX chromosomes. Not difficult. 8th grade science. 

It's the testes that concerns me more.  That's where the testosterone comes from and many/all of the athletic benefits of being male.

[okokzach]

NCAA President Charlie Baker testified in December that out of more than 500,000 student athletes, fewer than 10 were transgender. 

[Wrasslin]

16 hours ago, Seanyd said:

You are a fat tranny for starting this thread.

How dare you call me fat!!!! 

[Wrasslin]

14 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

can you give an example of "high t"

easy. It's the same as a "high c" (high crotch), but you grab their tit instead (high tit), hence "high t" 

[Caveira]

36 minutes ago, TNwrestling said:

 

So twice? In the entirety of high school track you've found two instances? 

I stopped googling boss.  No need to post every one.  If it’s wrong it’s wrong.  And should not need to happen enough to stop it. 

[TNwrestling]

7 minutes ago, Caveira said:

I stopped googling boss.  No need to post every one.  If it’s wrong it’s wrong.  And should not need to happen enough to stop it. 

We get it. You're on some new moral high horse because a guy who cannot control his bowels told you to care. So instead of working on things he SAID he was going to work on (ending the war in ukraine, ending the israel/palestine conflict, fixing the grocery prices) you can have some kind of fake outlet to place your rage. 

 

Don't act like this is some major issue that will cause the collapse of civilization if it isn't fixed. You didn't even care til a few months ago. 

[1032004]

43 minutes ago, JoeyLee said:

This is in my neck of the woods. the pitcher is a biological male and pitched 21 consecutive shutout innings. pretty crazy stuff

 

Also apparently puts a wrinkle into the argument about competing based on the gender on one’s birth certificate…

[Wrasslin]

8 hours ago, buckshot said:

Never has so much time been spent talking about something that hardly ever happens. Thrust me on this, the people who have their panties in a bunch over this not only don’t watch women’s sports, they HATE women’s sports. It’s just an excuse for bigots to bully a marginalized group.

Panties or underwear (boxer briefs)? That's kinda the whole crux of this whole thread? 

[Wrasslin]

22 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Is there one in Canada right now?  What have their results been?  I’m sure we’ll see one at Worlds since there’s no real qualification.  I’m skeptical we ever see one at the Olympics though 

I was kidding (sort of), but I've heard rumblings from "my guy" Will from Canada- it makes sense- Canada seems right, doesn't it? Any transgender wrestler to qualify from Canada will have to be pretty good though- their women's team is no joke! 

[Wrasslin]

17 hours ago, juniorvarsity said:

I wonder if USA wrestling would allow this today.

A very good question!! USAW transgender policy statement has been deleted online. Latest from 2024 (below), where they defer to IOC (International Olympic Committee) Policy (which, conveniently, is fluid and ambiguous) and UWW (United World Wrestling) transgender policy which is more straight forward: 

uww_transgender_policy_-_final.pdf