Should shooting through opponents face be legal?

[boconnell]

8 hours ago, BruceyB said:

Name one other sport where intentional head to head contact is allowed? It's not hard to tell the difference between incidental and when a wrestler sees their opponent's head is low, and they choose to shoot with the intention of driving their head straight through their opponents face.

I was just raising the question of whether or not a situation that often ends up with open gashes on one or both wrestlers should be allowed. We call potentially dangerous in situations to protect a wrestlers health, but allow them to be headbutted directly in the face without even stopping the action as long as their opponent is reaching for the legs simultaneously.

 

We don't allow anybody to be headbutted in the face.  That's some serious hyperbole.  A shot is nothing like a headbutt.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

8 hours ago, boconnell said:

We don't allow anybody to be headbutted in the face.  That's some serious hyperbole.  A shot is nothing like a headbutt.  

I'm not for banning "shooting through the face," but there is this...

[boconnell]

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I'm not for banning "shooting through the face," but there is this...

Obviously guys clash heads.  You can even claim it's with intent.  

That doesn't come close to making it a headbutt.

[Truzzcat]

Baseline defense is head hands I think worrying about giving up a penalty point because you shoot through what probably should be your opponent's natural reaction is unfair to the aggressor. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

8 minutes ago, boconnell said:

Obviously guys clash heads.  You can even claim it's with intent.  

That doesn't come close to making it a headbutt.

Did you see this one?  

Berger was annointed a "turdburger" on this very message board.

[Truzzcat]

1 minute ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Did you see this one?  

Berger was annointed a "turdburger" on this very message board.

didn't Berger straight up headbutt him?

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, Truzzcat said:

didn't Berger straight up headbutt him?

He pretending to be shooting.

 

[MPhillips]

13 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Berger was annointed a "turdburger" on this very message board.

Only @nhs67 bestows the, "turdburger."

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

9 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

Only @nhs67 bestows the, "turdburger."

I'm pretty sure he knighted him "Ser Tyler Turdberger"

[nhs67]

Berger?  No, he's a Cuntberger.  I still can't believe how much of a turdbiscuit that guy is.  I might be 57(ish) years... I'd still slap the white off of him, were I to see him.  Why purposefully and maliciously try to permanently damage someone's face?  That is weak.

[BruceyB]

14 hours ago, boconnell said:

We don't allow anybody to be headbutted in the face.  That's some serious hyperbole.  A shot is nothing like a headbutt.  

Are you sure? This looks a lot like an *intentional collision of heads* to me. Watch the slow-motion replay at 17:40 and let me know if you think that is good clean wrestling, or a situation that should be avoided. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely interested if you watch the slow-motion replay and think that Vito used a clean wrestling tactic.

Edit: Let's take away the semantics of calling it a headbutt. We'll call it intentional head to head collision.

Edited June 5 by BruceyB

[scourge165]

On 6/4/2025 at 2:26 PM, BruceyB said:

Name one other sport where intentional head to head contact is allowed? It's not hard to tell the difference between incidental and when a wrestler sees their opponent's head is low, and they choose to shoot with the intention of driving their head straight through their opponents face.

I was just raising the question of whether or not a situation that often ends up with open gashes on one or both wrestlers should be allowed. We call potentially dangerous in situations to protect a wrestlers health, but allow them to be headbutted directly in the face without even stopping the action as long as their opponent is reaching for the legs simultaneously.

 

It's not? You used an example where there was absolutely nothing that looked intentional other than an attempt to score(16:45 in the Fix-Vito match). 

 

Also...another sport where head to head contact is allowed? Football. EVERY-SINGLE-SNAP. There's constant head to head contact... and often incidental. MMA.

But I really don't care about other sports. This isn't preventable. It's part of the sport...and you get some black eyes, you give some...nothing you can do about it. 

[BruceyB]

1 hour ago, scourge165 said:

It's not? You used an example where there was absolutely nothing that looked intentional other than an attempt to score(16:45 in the Fix-Vito match). 

You are going to tell me that Vito did not intentionally lower the crown of his head and blast through Daton's face on this shot? Does he always shoot with his head down and eyes looking at the mat? Fix's head was in the same spot the entire time, and Vito said "you leave your head in my way, I'm going to blast through it." It's absurd to say to say this was an accident. 

Jordan Burrough's on the call argued when Cormier said "Jordan, that's a headbutt!" by saying "that's just good clean wrestling" which of course he would say because he's put his head through more faces than maybe anyone. He recognized the tactic and gave kudos to Vito for not being afraid to blow through his opponents face.

Edit: If you want to put the onus on Fix to not have his face in a vulnerable position, I can understand that. Don't take a three point stance if you aren't ready for someone to shoot through your face. But don't pretend like all of these collisions are "accidental."

Edited June 6 by BruceyB

[scourge165]

3 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

You are going to tell me that Vito did not intentionally lower the crown of his head and blast through Daton's face on this shot? Does he always shoot with his head down and eyes looking at the mat? Fix's head was in the same spot the entire time, and Vito said "you leave your head in my way, I'm going to blast through it." It's absurd to say to say this was an accident. 

Jordan Burrough's on the call argued when Cormier said "Jordan, that's a headbutt!" by saying "that's just good clean wrestling" which of course he would say because he's put his head through more faces than maybe anyone. He recognized the tactic and gave kudos to Vito for not being afraid to blow through his opponents face.

LOL...I'm going to tell you he doesn't "blast through Daton's face on this shot."

I'm not going to tell you he didn't "intentionally lower" his head and shoot because...THAT'S PART OF THE SHOT. 

You have to lower your levels. 

This is basic Wrestling. I don't care about the commentary, but using this example just because the announcers said something is silly. That was nothing. 

I don't know what you want. To ban a blast double? You want to plant your head right in someone's chest and run through him. If the opposing Wrestler is going to drop his head...he's going to feel it. We're not playing patty cake. 

This is part of the sport, it's always been part of the sport. It's physical. Vito is shooting him off. I'm kinda shocked anyone would have a problem with that shot. 

What would you have the sport do? Have a ref determine who is going for a legitimate shot and who isn't?

[BruceyB]

2 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

LOL...I'm going to tell you he doesn't "blast through Daton's face on this shot."

This is literally what happened. So if you're going to deny that Vito's head collided directly into Daton's face, then there is no point in bringing up intentionality, or whether there should be a stoppage when there is a hard head to head collision. I just think it's ironic that we stop action for an accidental eye poke, but allow for continuation after a violent head to head collision.

[Simpleman424]

6 hours ago, BruceyB said:

Are you sure? This looks a lot like an *intentional collision of heads* to me. Watch the slow-motion replay at 17:40 and let me know if you think that is good clean wrestling, or a situation that should be avoided. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely interested if you watch the slow-motion replay and think that Vito used a clean wrestling tactic.

Edit: Let's take away the semantics of calling it a headbutt. We'll call it intentional head to head collision.

Vito is so fast he probably believes he can get down there and get to a leg (or two) but what do people expect him to do? Army crawl to get under a deliberate defensive stance for a guy holding on for dear life to a match? We won’t know if it was intentional or not but I don’t feel bad for Fix after the way he wrestled that match.

[scourge165]

1 minute ago, BruceyB said:

This is literally what happened. So if you're going to deny that Vito's head collided directly into Daton's face, then there is no point in bringing up intentionality, or whether there should be a stoppage when there is a hard head to head collision. I just think it's ironic that we stop action for an accidental eye poke, but allow for continuation after a violent head to head collision.

You're talking about right after Vito gets out, it's 2-1 at that point(I think) and Vito shoots him out, right?

LOL...yeah, I'm saying his head doesn't "collide directly into Daton's face." 

Also, there IS a stoppage when there's a hard head to head collision(just as with the eye pokes) IF the Wrestler reacts. You'd think if he shot him straight into the face there, you'd think Fix's head would snap back...or at least some reaction. 

[BruceyB]

1 minute ago, scourge165 said:

you'd think Fix's head would snap back...or at least some reaction. 

My brother in Christ, this is literally what happened in this sequence. Watch the other angle at 17:40, . I'm trying to be respectful, but in back to back posts you are denying what undisputedly did happen. There was direct head to face contact, and Fix's head snapped up and back. Then immediately after, he looks at the ref with his palm up like, "you saw that right?" Then he again shows the ref the gash on his eye following the sequence.

[scourge165]

41 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

My brother in Christ, this is literally what happened in this sequence. Watch the other angle at 17:40, . I'm trying to be respectful, but in back to back posts you are denying what undisputedly did happen. There was direct head to face contact, and Fix's head snapped up and back. Then immediately after, he looks at the ref with his palm up like, "you saw that right?" Then he again shows the ref the gash on his eye following the sequence.

I can see the more direct contact now in the replay at 17:40.

Originally it just looks like a glancing blow. 

 

That doesn't change my initial point though. That's just part of the sport. Fix is standing there on the edge, head down. Vito shoots a blast double. I'm not sure what you want him to do.

You asked for a stoppage. You can always get a stoppage on a shot to the head. But do we ban the double? 

Squared stance, head down...it's just not a big deal to me. 

[BruceyB]

1 hour ago, scourge165 said:

I can see the more direct contact now in the replay at 17:40.

Originally it just looks like a glancing blow. 

 

That doesn't change my initial point though. That's just part of the sport. Fix is standing there on the edge, head down. Vito shoots a blast double. I'm not sure what you want him to do.

You asked for a stoppage. You can always get a stoppage on a shot to the head. But do we ban the double? 

Squared stance, head down...it's just not a big deal to me. 

I appreciate the honesty after watching the second angle. I haven't taken a side by the way. I just wanted to hear what people (like yourself) think when they actually understand what I am asking. I have mixed feelings on the topic, and that's why I asked. To hear other's opinions.

I do believe Fix has responsibility in the collision. He chose to be in a three point stance to presumably prevent Vito from shooting him out. Vito said, "watch me." Of course we don't ban the double, but I was curious if people thought it was fair game to shoot through someone's face if they are in a three point, or down on a knee. IMO it is a violent collision that often results in one or both parties with notable gashes, which is why I thought it was worth a conversation.

I have no problem if you think it's the defending wrestlers position to not allow himself to be in such a vulnerable position. That's why I asked the question. I feel like now we're on the same page and you expressed your thought clearly in that last sentence. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

I've never had the opportunity to meet Burroughs.  I heard Askren say that when you get close enough to talk to JB, you can see tons  little tiny chips in his teeth from all these collisions. I'm not sure if JB has had dental work done since then, but I thought it was an interesting anecdote. (He brought it up when a guy relaxed on his knees vs JB in one of his last title runs.  Maybe 2022?  JB blasted the guy who I think was Russian, but could have been Iranian.  It was a tough dude from a tough country and it was a big score in a big match)