Hendrickson wins Hodge

[Offthemat]

6 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

Now, the OK Corraler on the other hand is a kickass nickname.  Or how about the The Stillwater Sheriff or The Flying Cowboy.

Hercules Hendrickson 

[boconnell]

57 minutes ago, BAC said:

I didn't even mention Wyatt in my comment.  I was talking about heavyweights in general, and the fact that I look at bonus points by heavyweights a bit differently than other weights.  I don't think I'm alone either.

But since you ask:  do I doubt Wyatt was outclassing his opponents?  No, not at all.  Nor am I questioning his athleticism, which is tremendous.  What I'm just saying that, on average, heavyweights are easier to pin than non-heavyweights.  Every data point backs that up. 

What that means is if you put Wyatt's athleticism and skill set in a 197lber's body, he'd likely have half as many pins. Simple fact is, he's in a weight class where getting a win by fall is much easier than in other weights.  It's something to consider when evaluating how dominant a heavyweight is.

You didn't mention Wyatt but you made a post about pins at heavyweight in a thread called "Hendrickson wins the Hodge".

More pins at heavyweight doesn't make majors or tech falls more impressive than pins at heavyweight.  There are data points that say pins happen more at heavyweight, so you could say that 10 pins at 157 is more impressive than 10 at Heavy.  But the biggest data point is that pins are worth more points and are the ultimate goal in collegiate wrestling.  So it might be easier to pin at heavyweight, but it's still what every heavyweight is trying to do, so there is no reasonable world where a major at heavyweight is more impressive than a pin at heavyweight.

Edited Tuesday at 05:42 AM by boconnell

[BAC]

8 minutes ago, boconnell said:

You didn't mention Wyatt but you made a post about pins at heavyweight in a thread called "Hendrickson wins the Hodge".

In case you missed it, I was responding to a post that asked:

"Honest question - 

Wrestler A majors 90% of his opponents. 
Wrestler B pins 75% of theirs.

Are you going to call A more dominant?"

So I gave an honest answer.

It's weird that you won't let a guy answer that without getting all defensive on Wyatt's behalf.

8 minutes ago, boconnell said:

More pins at heavyweight doesn't make majors or tech falls more impressive than pins at heavyweight.  There are data points that say pins happen more at heavyweight, but the biggest data point is that pins are worth more points and are the ultimate goal in collegiate wrestling.  So it might be easier to pin at heavyweight, but it's still what every heavyweight is trying to do, so there is no world where a major at heavyweight is more impressive than a pin at heavyweight.

Obviously if I'm a coach, I'd rather have pins from my HWT than majors.  I don't care how unsightly or grotesque the technique, I just want my 6 points.  But as a fan assessing dominance, a pin at HWT just isn't as big an accomplishment. Lots of mediocre heavies racking up the falls. Conversely, not as many HWTs (vs other weights) have the mobility and athleticism and skill to rack up pins and techs, so that tells more about how good that HWT is.

[Dark Energy]

5 hours ago, BAC said:

Actually you were comparing a 90% major rate vs. a 75% pin rate, which is what I commented on.  Now you're changing the question. 

What I'm saying is that the difficulty of pinning your opponent is lower in the HWT category, and the difficulty of running up the score is higher.  That impacts how I view HWT dominance vs other weights.  So, in HWT, and only in HWT, I'm more impressed by 90% majors over 75% pins.

Ok - so if wrestler A majors 90% and wrestler B pins 75%, in Hvy, you are more impressed with A.  
 

What if both 90%?  From your posts, I assume A still.  Fair?  
 

 Now, for both scenarios above, which is more dominant?  Seems like you are avoiding that word.  Perhaps you feel A is better (aka more impressive) but wondering if you feel is also more dominant.

[Caveira]

7 hours ago, BAC said:

didn't even mention Wyatt in my comment.  I was talking about heavyweights in general, and the fact that I look at bonus points by heavyweights a bit differently than other weights.  I don't think I'm alone either.

You may not be alone.  But you’re 100% in the minority.   Look at the proverbial scoreboard where the hwt won.

[1032004]

7 hours ago, BAC said:

In case you missed it, I was responding to a post that asked:

"Honest question - 

Wrestler A majors 90% of his opponents. 
Wrestler B pins 75% of theirs.

Are you going to call A more dominant?"

So I gave an honest answer.

It's weird that you won't let a guy answer that without getting all defensive on Wyatt's behalf.

Obviously if I'm a coach, I'd rather have pins from my HWT than majors.  I don't care how unsightly or grotesque the technique, I just want my 6 points.  But as a fan assessing dominance, a pin at HWT just isn't as big an accomplishment. Lots of mediocre heavies racking up the falls. Conversely, not as many HWTs (vs other weights) have the mobility and athleticism and skill to rack up pins and techs, so that tells more about how good that HWT is.

I’m as big of a heavyweight hater as anyone here, but heavyweights in D1 and heavyweights in HS are a different universe.  I know you “didn’t mention Wyatt,” but he did pin Trumble twice, not exactly your typical heavyweight.

[okokzach]

A higher frequency of pins in HWT doesn't necessarily prove that HWTs are easier to pin. It's just as likely that HWTs are simply better at pinning. So Wyatt also contended in a class where it was more likely that he could get caught in a pin. 

What I think is the likely factor is that there are bigger weight discrepancies in HWT. Wyatt is was a midsize HWT this year weighing in the 250s. I'm told he was smaller when he was in the Air Force because of weight restrictions at the Academy, however, he was still a 3x NCAA pins leader when he was at AF. 

Edited Tuesday at 02:47 PM by okokzach

[BarSeries]

Choosing to not pin someone and scoring less points for your team and claiming that is more dominant is wild. 

[BAC]

38 minutes ago, BarSeries said:

Choosing to not pin someone and scoring less points for your team and claiming that is more dominant is wild. 

Yes "choosing" would be wild.  If that's what someone said. Which no one did.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

22 hours ago, BarSeries said:

 

All three are "Basch's guys."  I'm sure some tears are being shed in the Basch household, over fine wines and Traeger smoked meats.

[BAC]

2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I’m as big of a heavyweight hater as anyone here, but heavyweights in D1 and heavyweights in HS are a different universe.  I know you “didn’t mention Wyatt,” but he did pin Trumble twice, not exactly your typical heavyweight.

Yes, it's a massive difference, but year in and year out, the trend olds:  HWTs are easiest to pin.

Echoing what okokzach said above, I do agree it's mostly a function of size discrepancy at the D1 level.  The biggest pinners are always the biggest dudes.  It also helps explain your point about Trumble, who was a 197lber 2 years ago and wrestled 97kg last year. Wyatt must have 50 pounds on him easy.

None of this is to denigrate Wyatt in any way, who is a freak of an athlete.  But if you show me a 283lb HWT with 10 pins and a 149lber with 10 pins, I'd say the 149lber is probably the more dominant wrestler.   

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, BAC said:

Yes, it's a massive difference, but year in and year out, the trend olds:  HWTs are easiest to pin.

Echoing what okokzach said above, I do agree it's mostly a function of size discrepancy at the D1 level.  The biggest pinners are always the biggest dudes.  It also helps explain your point about Trumble, who was a 197lber 2 years ago and wrestled 97kg last year. Wyatt must have 50 pounds on him easy.

None of this is to denigrate Wyatt in any way, who is a freak of an athlete.  But if you show me a 283lb HWT with 10 pins and a 149lber with 10 pins, I'd say the 149lber is probably the more dominant wrestler.   

@Wrestleknownothing has a solution:  HWTs should be required to pinfall, no more simple pins for heavies.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

18 hours ago, BarSeries said:

 

"...No matter what team or critera." and especially if it is a PSU wrestler.

[bnwtwg]

10 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

All three are "Basch's guys."  I'm sure some tears are being shed in the Basch household, over fine wines and Traeger smoked meats.

All while indulging in the sniffing of one's own farts

[Coastal]

3 hours ago, Caveira said:

You may not be alone.  But you’re 100% in the minority.   Look at the proverbial scoreboard where the hwt won.

Hendrickson won via the fan vote as he lost the other vote.   Two large fan bases in Ok State and Iowa went all in on him.  One wanted him, the other hated Starocci.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

17 hours ago, dragit said:

Wasn't the dual winner Gable/Spencer year NOT an exact tie?  Could they have split this between Hendrickson and Starocci based on the tight/split vote?  There are great arguments for both. If I had to pick one I'd pick Hendrickson because I think the pins mean way more than the majors, but I think a dual winner would have been appropriate. 

From listening to Askren talk about this more than once, it wasn't an exact tie, but it was close.  So they foolishly gave out two awards.

[Caveira]

1 minute ago, Coastal said:

Hendrickson won via the fan vote as he lost the other vote.   Two large fan bases in Ok State and Iowa went all in on him.  One wanted him, the other hated Starocci.

A loss is a loss boss.   I don’t know why starocci alienated so many fans.  If only one could figure that out and course correct.    Weird.  
 

funny question.  Do Iowa fans hate okie state.   I don’t think you need to answer that question.   

[Dogbone]

Carter needed a 5th year and the TD to increase to 3 points just to bonus rate above 66%.  If he wanted the Hodge he could of scored more points, but he was content to control the match, sit on ankles, and win comfortably.

[ionel]

1 minute ago, Caveira said:

funny question.  Do Iowa fans hate okie state.  

April fools joke correct.  

[Coastal]

Just now, Caveira said:

A loss is a loss boss.   I don’t know why starocci alienated so many fans.  If only one could figure that out and course correct.    Weird.  
 

funny question.  Do Iowa fans hate okie state.   I don’t think you need to answer that question.   

 

At one time, the arena would erupt if an Iowa wrestler lost.  Now Penn State has that mantle.   When an Oklahoma St wrestler lost in the early rounds, Iowa fans didn't even react.     The same way that most neutrals are ambivalent towards Iowa now.  At one point it was love them or hate them, now they only really matter to neutrals if they are trying to poach a wrestler.

[Bigbrog]

Never seen so many people doing everything in their power to justify downplaying pins...last time I checked wasn't pinning someone always the no. 1 thing people are trying to do in wrestling.

[Dogbone]

For all the Carter was robbed people, I have an honest question.   Wasn't MM the more deserving Hodge winner than Carter?   Same record, higher bonus rate.   Is the only reason people are pushing for Carter because he got 5 titles or he is older?   Wasn't Michell more dominate than Carter this year?

[BarSeries]

1 minute ago, Dogbone said:

For all the Carter was robbed people, I have an honest question.   Wasn't MM the more deserving Hodge winner than Carter?   Same record, higher bonus rate.   Is the only reason people are pushing for Carter because he got 5 titles or he is older?   Wasn't Michell more dominate than Carter this year?

Strength of competition 

[1032004]

31 minutes ago, BAC said:

None of this is to denigrate Wyatt in any way, who is a freak of an athlete.  But if you show me a 283lb HWT with 10 pins and a 149lber with 10 pins, I'd say the 149lber is probably the more dominant wrestler.   

I agree.  But what if I show you a heavyweight with 13 pins and a 184 pounder with 6 pins, then who is more dominant?  No particular wrestlers in mind here, just making up some numbers

[BarSeries]

Just now, 1032004 said:

But what if I show you a heavyweight with 13 pins and a 184 pounder with 6 pins, then who is more dominant?

Which one is from PSU?