Iowa's plan for when the Brands retire?

[BruceyB]

6 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Bla.  Bla the game changed so you adapt.  Where did messenbrink come from ?   Or kerk.  Or nagoo.  Or truax.   Or dean.   
 

it’s a fact.  They have had the #1 best results over time not counting psu.   

The hawkeyes haven't had a #1 recruiting class since 2012..

And I'm not disagreeing that transfers are a part of the game, but the idea of transfers is to fill holes in your lineup.. a la Penn State. Iowa brought in four transfers and still has two holes in their lineup..

I'm not saying they're dead, far from it. but I don't understand how anyone could look at their last five recruiting classes and act like it's not a concern. I'd love to see what other consistently relevant teams have managed to only turn one recruit into an AA from the classes of 2019-2023. Regardless of the sentiment, "the game changed so you adapt."

I'm bored enough that I quickly went through the big boards from 2019-2023 and made a quick list of schools with 2 or more AA's from their own original recruits. I'm sure I'm missing some schools or athletes.

OK St - Ferrari, Plott

tOSU - Welsh, Feldman, Mendez, Kharchla, D'Emilio

Cornell - Shapiro, Foca, Cardenas

Michigan - Ragusin, Amine

VT - Henson, Stewart, Ventresca, Andonian, Latona

Minnesota - Vombaur, Nagao, Salazar

Iowa St - Swiderski, Frost

Lehigh - Stanich, Crookham

NC St - R. Jack, Ed Scott, Orine

Missouri - KOT, Rocky, Elam

Nebraska - Taylor, Lovett

Arizona St - Figs, Schultz

Wisconsin - Hamiti, Barnett

West Virginia, Hall, Waters

Rutgers - Shawver, Poznanski

Little Rock - Bailey, Little

So at least 16 schools have produced more home grown AAs during this stretch. Transfers are great, but they don't win you a National title or in the conversation with Penn State unless you can grow your own AA's to compliment them.

[Caveira]

6 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

The hawkeyes haven't had a #1 recruiting class since 2012..

And I'm not disagreeing that transfers are a part of the game, but the idea of transfers is to fill holes in your lineup.. a la Penn State. Iowa brought in four transfers and still has two holes in their lineup..

I'm not saying they're dead, far from it. but I don't understand how anyone could look at their last five recruiting classes and act like it's not a concern. I'd love to see what other consistently relevant teams have managed to only turn one recruit into an AA from the classes of 2019-2023. Regardless of the sentiment, "the game changed so you adapt."

I'm bored enough that I quickly went through the big boards from 2019-2023 and made a quick list of schools with 2 or more AA's from their own original recruits. I'm sure I'm missing some schools or athletes.

OK St - Ferrari, Plott

tOSU - Welsh, Feldman, Mendez, Kharchla, D'Emilio

Cornell - Shapiro, Foca, Cardenas

Michigan - Ragusin, Amine

VT - Henson, Stewart, Ventresca, Andonian, Latona

Minnesota - Vombaur, Nagao, Salazar

Iowa St - Swiderski, Frost

Lehigh - Stanich, Crookham

NC St - R. Jack, Ed Scott, Orine

Missouri - KOT, Rocky, Elam

Nebraska - Taylor, Lovett

Arizona St - Figs, Schultz

Wisconsin - Hamiti, Barnett

West Virginia, Hall, Waters

Rutgers - Shawver, Poznanski

Little Rock - Bailey, Little

So at least 16 schools have produced more home grown AAs during this stretch. Transfers are great, but they don't win you a National title or in the conversation with Penn State unless you can grow your own AA's to compliment them.

Have any schools not named psu produced more AAs?  Or over time finished as high as Iowa does on average.  It’s 0 isn’t it?

[ionel]

1 minute ago, Caveira said:

Have any schools not named psu produced more AAs?  Or over time finished as high as Iowa does on average.  It’s 0 isn’t it?

What do you mean by "over time?" 

[Wrestleknownothing]

11 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Have any schools not named psu produced more AAs?  Or over time finished as high as Iowa does on average.  It’s 0 isn’t it?

It is 0 during the Brands era

[BruceyB]

5 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Have any schools not named psu produced more AAs?  Or over time finished as high as Iowa does on average.  It’s 0 isn’t it?

I have no idea what your definition of "over time" is.. Are we including Dan Gable's teams in this discussion as if that has any relevance with the current conversation? I just named 16 teams that have produced more AA's since 2019 than Iowa. And I'm not talking about NCAA finish, I'm talking about recruiting and developing.. which is kind of important for sustained success in NCAA wrestling.

What they're doing now is failing to grow their own talent, and then bringing in transfers over the top of these recruits. How long is that going to last before kids just decide to go somewhere consistently producing AAs and not just hiring AAs.

[BruceyB]

5 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

It is 0 during the Brands era

I don't doubt it, but tOSU has four top two finishes (one title) since 2010, and Iowa has three top two finishes (one title) in the same time frame. I'm sorry if you'd like the results of Iowa from 15+ years ago to hold significant weight in this discussion. Let's go back to 2002-2025 and use that to explain about how great John Smith was in the 2020s..

They haven't had a National Champion in a weight above 133 since 2013.

[Wrestleknownothing]

Just now, BruceyB said:

I have no idea what your definition of "over time" is.. Are we including Dan Gable's teams in this discussion as if that has any relevance with the current conversation? I just named 16 teams that have produced more AA's since 2019 than Iowa. And I'm not talking about NCAA finish, I'm talking about recruiting and developing.. which is kind of important for sustained success in NCAA wrestling.

What they're doing now is failing to grow their own talent, and then bringing in transfers over the top of these recruits. How long is that going to last before kids just decide to go somewhere consistently producing AAs and not just hiring AAs.

Or follow Askren's advice?

If you want to go to Iowa, go someplace else first. If you do well, get paid to go to Iowa.

[Wrestleknownothing]

8 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

I don't doubt it, but tOSU has four top two finishes (one title) since 2010, and Iowa has three top two finishes (one title) in the same time frame. I'm sorry if you'd like the results of Iowa from 15+ years ago to hold significant weight in this discussion. Let's go back to 2002-2025 and use that to explain about how great John Smith was in the 2020s..

They haven't had a National Champion in a weight above 133 since 2013.

Counterpoint. The year OSU won was PSU's punt year. Iowa is still the only team to beat a fully committed PSU since 2010. And they were highly likely to do it two years in a row, both with predominantly homegrow and developed talent, had the pandemic not shut it down. That is more recent than OSU's title.

[Caveira]

30 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

It is 0 during the Brands era

Which team Not named psu has had more all Americans and over what period of time?

[Caveira]

29 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

I just named 16 teams that have produced more AA's since 2019 than Iowa.

No you didn’t.  Little Rock lol.   You made a huge caveat as to where the AA came from which is stupid.  

[ionel]

6 hours ago, Le duke said:

I’m fairly certain a potato could coach Iowa to a top 5 finish most years.
 

What say you @Idaho?  

[BruceyB]

What caveat did I use? I went back to 2019 because that is the last year that still has relevance this season, and I'm not including bringing in transfers as developing your own AA. And yes, Little Rock has produced more All-Americans than Iowa in this stretch.

Paying for another school's AA to wear your singlet doesn't give you credit for developing an AA. 

But hey, if failing to develop recruits and then shelling out money to stay relevant is your idea of success, then rock on Iowa. 

[Caveira]

Just now, BruceyB said:

Paying for another school's AA to wear your singlet doesn't give you credit for developing an AA. 

Whatever man.  Ncaa finish is what matters.  you’re just an Iowa hater.  Have a nice day.  

Ask messenbrink, dean, truax, nagoo, and kerk if their ncaa points count.   I suspect they do. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

17 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Which team Not named psu has had more all Americans and over what period of time?

 

[Caveira]

1 minute ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

 

Thank you sir.   ASU pleasant surprise.   Without info I would have taken that bet!

Edited December 30, 2024 by Caveira

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

 

 ... and the last ~100?  Ya know the over time thing. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

Brands has not struggled to produce AAs, homegrown or transfers. He has struggled to produce champions.

[Wrestleknownothing]

2 minutes ago, ionel said:

 ... and the last ~100?  Ya know the over time thing. 

One caveat. That weird orange bar includes years where they gave out AAs like covid relief funds. For example, there are two AAs in that total that never won an NCAA tournament match. I wish I could remember which team that was.

[Mr. PeanutButter]

11 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

 

I see now why Brands has been hellbent on pilfering ASU. I kid!

Even as an Iowa fan, I am surprised to see how relatively big the gap is between 2nd and 3rd in terms of AA production "over time."

But, this kinda feeds into what I think is the most concerning thing about the program and that is the relative low number of champs (your graphs don't elucidate this point but others have made it, and it's easy to look up). Recruits may already be thinking "Iowa will make you pretty good, but won't get you to the top". 

As for the original topic, I have a hunch that the Brands won't seriously consider retiring until after they get one more team title. But maybe they'll be forced out by the end of the current contract (2029). In either case, we can kick the can down the road for a few more years

 

[ionel]

15 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

One caveat. That weird orange bar includes years where they gave out AAs like covid relief funds. For example, there are two AAs in that total that never won an NCAA tournament match. I wish I could remember which team that was.

Maybe those two were during the Spanish Flu pandemic?  They got to the tournament but ...  

[Wrestleknownothing]

13 minutes ago, ionel said:

Maybe those two were during the Spanish Flu pandemic?  They got to the tournament but ...  

Back in the day what it took to get to the tournament was a ride.

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Back in the day what it took to get to the tournament was a ride.

You ain't wrong.

Now you get paid to go.

Edited December 30, 2024 by ionel

[Caveira]

2 hours ago, ionel said:

What do you mean by "over time?" 

I didn’t overly define it but wkn’s graph captured it.   I think it’s true that since the pre Dan gable era Over any 5/10 year stretch no one other than the current psu teams have consistently produced  more AAs than iowa.   I bet if you graphed avg ncaa finish the results would be same / similar ish too.   You have to invent caveats like the changes in nil recruiting and the portal to caveat things to make them look worse.   I do wait with bated breath for the one day Little Rock beats Iowa at NCAAs.   I’ll donate some $ to USA wrestling in @BruceyB’s name when that happens.  

also @BruceyB I’m still waiting on an answer if kerk dean nagoo messenbrink or deans points count at NCAAs or not.   Heck.  Do the psu dudes who were recruited over who went elsewhere via the portal….. do those points count for psu too since they were recruited there.  It’s so complicated lol.  

[BruceyB]

1 minute ago, Caveira said:

I didn’t overly define it but wkn’s graph captured it.   I think it’s true that since the pre Dan gable era Over any 5/10 year stretch no one other than the current psu teams have consistently produced  more AAs than iowa.   I bet if you graphed avg ncaa finish the results would be same / similar ish too.   You have to invent caveats like the changes in nil recruiting and the portal to caveat things to make them look worse.   I do wait with bated breath for the one day Little Rock beats Iowa at NCAAs.   I’ll donate some $ to USA wrestling in @BruceyB’s name when that happens.  

also @BruceyB I’m still waiting on an answer if kerk dean nagoo messenbrink or deans points count at NCAAs or not.   Heck.  Do the psu dudes who were recruited over who went elsewhere via the portal….. do those points count for psu too since they were recruited there.  It’s so complicated lol.  

To put it simply, I think guys who spend RS at another school, but never actually wrestled a season there (Kerk and Mesenbrink) is a slightly different case than we're talking about. All of Iowa's transfers were already AA's when they stepped on campus. But regardless, the difference between Iowa and PSU is what their lineups look like if you take away transfers.

125: Lilledahl

133: Davis

141: Bartlett

149: SVN

157: Kasak

165: Facundo

174: Haines

184: Starocci

197: Barr

285: Nevills would have never left (or they'd probably have a hole here presuming they wouldn't have landed a recruit since 2020).

Feel free to share Iowa's lineup without transfers.

[RawDog]

Metcalf, I suspect he is the reason behind Iowa states recent success. He already has experience and is from Iowa. He was the definition of the Iowa style.