Daniel Penny trial

[mspart]

I personally believe this is a joke of a prosecution.   What are we about as a nation?   Who do we value?   A person who tries to save life, or the person threatening the lives of people trapped on tan subway train?   It is obvious what Alvin Bragg values and that is the dirt bag that threatened the health and life of many on the train car who happens to be a  man of color and a homeless drug addict.   Bragg obviously feels that Neely is the type of person that adds more to society than Penny, who is white and was just going to his job and he restrained the more worthy drugged out crazy guy who was threatening the others on the train car.   In fact, there were others that assisted Penny in restraining Neely.  But Neely is more worthy than Penny, those that helped him, and those that were victimized by Neely. 

What this tells us is to allow crazy drugged out people to do what they do.   They are blameless.  Projected victims have no rights whatsoever to be safe.  

I certainly hope Penny is found not guilty.  

mspart

[Bigbrog]

21 hours ago, mspart said:

I personally believe this is a joke of a prosecution.   What are we about as a nation?   Who do we value?   A person who tries to save life, or the person threatening the lives of people trapped on tan subway train?   It is obvious what Alvin Bragg values and that is the dirt bag that threatened the health and life of many on the train car who happens to be a  man of color and a homeless drug addict.   Bragg obviously feels that Neely is the type of person that adds more to society than Penny, who is white and was just going to his job and he restrained the more worthy drugged out crazy guy who was threatening the others on the train car.   In fact, there were others that assisted Penny in restraining Neely.  But Neely is more worthy than Penny, those that helped him, and those that were victimized by Neely. 

What this tells us is to allow crazy drugged out people to do what they do.   They are blameless.  Projected victims have no rights whatsoever to be safe.  

I certainly hope Penny is found not guilty.  

mspart

Agreed on all parts!

[Offthemat]

One would think that members of the jury would reject the coddling of criminals that the prosecutors and courts have been practicing.  

[mspart]

One would think, but that has proven not to be true in many cases. 

mspart

[Tripnsweep]

I think he's guilty. People who have that kind of knowledge and training know what appropriate use of force is. If I killed somebody under those circumstances, I'd be guilty too. I think the problem is the excessive use of force. You can easily get caught up in the moment, adrenaline is going, I get that. But if you kill somebody then you have to face some kind of consequences. This wasn't like a fist fight where somebody got hit in the head and died accidentally. This was a guy who had already subdued somebody he felt was a threat, and held onto his neck in a choke for too long and killed him. It wasn't premeditated, it doesn't sound like he was a particular sort to be an asshole, he just got caught up and unfortunately he killed somebody. I think the charges he's facing are appropriate. 

[Offthemat]

26 minutes ago, Tripnsweep said:

I think he's guilty. People who have that kind of knowledge and training know what appropriate use of force is. If I killed somebody under those circumstances, I'd be guilty too. I think the problem is the excessive use of force. You can easily get caught up in the moment, adrenaline is going, I get that. But if you kill somebody then you have to face some kind of consequences. This wasn't like a fist fight where somebody got hit in the head and died accidentally. This was a guy who had already subdued somebody he felt was a threat, and held onto his neck in a choke for too long and killed him. It wasn't premeditated, it doesn't sound like he was a particular sort to be an asshole, he just got caught up and unfortunately he killed somebody. I think the charges he's facing are appropriate. 

All while the dead man’s criminal history suggests he shouldn’t have been out on the streets; that fault lies with the courts. 

[Tripnsweep]

7 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

All while the dead man’s criminal history suggests he shouldn’t have been out on the streets; that fault lies with the courts. 

That isn't relevant. 

[mspart]

So Trip, would the situation be any different if Neely knifed a woman (or otherwise assaulted a woman or child or man) and Penny put in in the same hold and Neely died?  I see this and the actual situation as the same as people on the train were fearing being hurt because of Neely's behavior and threats.    

ms

[Paul158]

38 minutes ago, Tripnsweep said:

That isn't relevant. 

Did you read about the synthetic drugs he had in his body? Did you read that he had sickle cell anemia all through his body? He also had suffered from schizophrenia. So when you put all that together with the struggle and the restraint his body could not handle it. One other thing Penny was applying pressure then letting off during the incident then reapplying it. Dr. Satish Chundra (Pathologist} performed the second autopsy. When a rear naked choke hold is applied in full force the person goes unconscious (goes limp) in around 10 seconds. You don't die you just lose consciousness. It takes anywhere between 5 seconds to several minutes to recover depending on individuals' health and other factors.

[Tripnsweep]

1 hour ago, mspart said:

So Trip, would the situation be any different if Neely knifed a woman (or otherwise assaulted a woman or child or man) and Penny put in in the same hold and Neely died?  I see this and the actual situation as the same as people on the train were fearing being hurt because of Neely's behavior and threats.    

ms

Yes it would be. Because in the situation that actually happened, Neely was just yelling and acting crazy but that was it. He didn't actually harm anyone or even try harming anyone. I'm sure his behavior was unnerving to people around him, but it didn't sound like it rose to the level where deadly force was necessary to subdue him. 

[Tripnsweep]

4 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

Did you read about the synthetic drugs he had in his body? Did you read that he had sickle cell anemia all through his body? He also had suffered from schizophrenia. So when you put all that together with the struggle and the restraint his body could not handle it. One other thing Penny was applying pressure then letting off during the incident then reapplying it. Dr. Satish Chundra (Pathologist} performed the second autopsy. When a rear naked choke hold is applied in full force the person goes unconscious (goes limp) in around 10 seconds. You don't die you just lose consciousness. It takes anywhere between 5 seconds to several minutes to recover depending on individuals' health and other factors.

That doesn't justify repeatedly choking somebody for 6 minutes. Again if you kill somebody you should face consequences. There's no do over button. 

[Paul158]

When you engage with a person you don't have the benefit of knowing his extremely poor health condition and his extremely poor phycological condition. You don't have the benefit of knowing if the person is deadly serious in his threats to others in a very closed confined area. Neely died from his own struggle while being constrained. His health condition and mental health condition killed him. A normal healthy person survives that choke hold and restraint 100 percent of the time. Neely died from using poor judgement. He should have been in a hospital under medical care. Thats on Neely and those around him. His family and friends.

[ionel]

1 hour ago, Tripnsweep said:

That doesn't justify repeatedly choking somebody for 6 minutes. 

And you have evidence that he repeatedly choked him?  You should be an Expert Witness for the prosecution. 

[Tripnsweep]

1 hour ago, Paul158 said:

When you engage with a person you don't have the benefit of knowing his extremely poor health condition and his extremely poor phycological condition. You don't have the benefit of knowing if the person is deadly serious in his threats to others in a very closed confined area. Neely died from his own struggle while being constrained. His health condition and mental health condition killed him. A normal healthy person survives that choke hold and restraint 100 percent of the time. Neely died from using poor judgement. He should have been in a hospital under medical care. Thats on Neely and those around him. His family and friends.

Maybe. But the smart thing to do would be to not engage in trying to subdue somebody who other than acting erratically and saying things, was not a threat. You can't speculate on whether a healthy person would have survived or not. That is unknown. The law deals in what is known. Penny is on trial because he killed somebody. He isn't on trial because of what may have hypothetically happened under different circumstances. 

[Tripnsweep]

15 minutes ago, ionel said:

And you have evidence that he repeatedly choked him?  You should be an Expert Witness for the prosecution. 

That is what the prosecutor is saying and the video of the incident looks like. 

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, Tripnsweep said:

That is what the prosecutor is saying and the video of the incident looks like. 

repeatedly? 

[mspart]

Is it possible to put a person in a hold like that without choking of air or blood?   Of course, it is a subdue-ing hold that can also make it so he cannot fight and get away.   He can continually struggle which is what he did.   That is apparent because it took others to help subdue him. 

A review of the toxicology and further autopsy showed that he was not deprived of blood or breath.  If true, did Penny koll him?

I think the situation of him threatening harm to others is sufficient to subdue him.   Better than after he assaults and possibly seriously injures someone.   I have no problem with what Penny did'. 

[Ohio Elite]

 

[Ohio Elite]

 

[Tripnsweep]

The remaining charge is criminally negligent homicide, which I think is appropriate for what happened. That is when you take an action that kills somebody by accident. 

[Offthemat]

What should he get for the lives he protected?

[ionel]

9 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

What should he get for the lives he protected?

Presidential pardon or 5 get out of jail free cards. 

[mspart]

Lives saved do not matter.   Based on the above post, this is a racial prosecution pure and simple.   Charges should be dropped. 

mspart

[uncle bernard]

45 minutes ago, mspart said:

Lives saved do not matter.   Based on the above post, this is a racial prosecution pure and simple.   Charges should be dropped. 

mspart

Yeah, what kind of country do we live in if you can’t strangle a homeless man for being loud on the subway?

The man was completely restrained and no longer a threat and Penny decided to keep choking him for 5 minutes, even after he was unconscious. He was warned repeatedly by witnesses that he was killing him. Textbook manslaughter.

“Lives saved” He was unarmed and the worst he actually did was throw trash. The only thing they found on him was a muffin. Was he targeting someone with a nut allergy perhaps?

Being around someone going through a mental episode is frightening and unpleasant. But that doesn’t mean you have free rein to kill that person. The reality is most people in this country view homeless people as subhuman. 

 

[uncle bernard]

1 hour ago, Ohio Elite said:

 

The man Williams stabbed actually attacked him and his girlfriend.