Daniel Penny trial

[Caveira]

1 minute ago, Tripnsweep said:

He said he didn't care if he lived or died and some vague things like that but it doesn't rise to the level of directly threatening somebody. I've heard people who are SMI say things like that and instead of feeling threatened, my response is, "Wow that person really needs help and the police should come try to get them somewhere they can't hurt themselves or somebody else." Not to preemptively attack them and strangle them to death. 

But he did threaten to kill people yes?

[jross]

Passengers said that Neely was threatening them and they were scared in a way they have never been after 30 years of subway use.

• One witness testified to the grand jury that Neely’s menacing words — which included ravings that “someone is going to die today” and that he was “ready to go to Rikers” — were “insanely threatening” and delivered with a “sickening” and “satanic” bent.
• A witness “believed he was going to die as Neely began approaching him,” the motion read.  “He described the moment as ‘absolutely traumatizing’ beyond anything he had ever experienced in six years riding the subway,” the lawyers wrote.
• And a different person — this time, a retiree who’s been riding the subway for more than three decades — told the grand jury that she’d never been more scared.  “I have encountered many things, but nothing that put fear into me like that,” she testified.
• Passenger Moriela Sanchez's 911 call said that Neely was “trying to attack everybody.”
• Passenger Caedryn Schrunk said "There was a moment where I truly thought I was going to die," 
• Another witness — who was with her young son — told the grand jury that Neely said he wanted to hurt people.
  • “I want to go to Rikers, I want to go to prison,” she recalled him saying, adding that her nervous son asked her why the man would want to be jailed.
  • “Mother and son took cover behind her son’s stroller, shielding themselves from Neely, who was now making ‘half-lunge movements’ and coming within a ‘half a foot of people,” the attorneys wrote.
• Another witness, who was commuting from her high school, said she put her hand on her classmate’s chest and began “praying them doors would open” the second Neely said someone would die.
• Other passengers said that Neely was throwing trash at passengers

 

I cannot find the 52-page motion with eye witness testimony available to the public.  Above are lesser discussed newspaper quotes from passengers.

 

Edited December 9 by jross

[mspart]

Just now, Tripnsweep said:

He said he didn't care if he lived or died and some vague things like that but it doesn't rise to the level of directly threatening somebody. I've heard people who are SMI say things like that and instead of feeling threatened, my response is, "Wow that person really needs help and the police should come try to get them somewhere they can't hurt themselves or somebody else." Not to preemptively attack them and strangle them to death. 

I think you are mistaken.   You might read up on it.  

mspart

[Tripnsweep]

4 minutes ago, mspart said:

You know it wasn't too long ago that words (I'm anti-abortion, I'm anti-trans, etc) were considered violence and could be met with violence.  But now that it went the wrong way, words are not considered violence.   Make your your minds all you lefties.   It is either violence or it is not violence.   You can't have it both ways.   The words used in this case were absolutely violent leading Penny to take action.   I' bet he wishes he just left aft the next stop too.   So much for trying to protect innocent people. 

mspart

I'm pretty sure that I know what violence is and isn't. I've seen plenty of people act this way and never felt threatened. 

[jross]

Just now, Tripnsweep said:

I'm pretty sure that I know what violence is and isn't. I've seen plenty of people act this way and never felt threatened. 

Apparently there was "something" about this trip that scared two passengers in a way they had never been scared before on a subway after 6 and 30 years.  Beyond the "satanic grumbling" and "trash throwing," perhaps it was the lunging and declaration that "somebody is going to die today" and that he is "headed to rikers."

[Caveira]

31 minutes ago, Tripnsweep said:

He said he didn't care if he lived or died and some vague things like that but it doesn't rise to the level of directly threatening somebody. I've heard people who are SMI say things like that and instead of feeling threatened, my response is, "Wow that person really needs help and the police should come try to get them somewhere they can't hurt themselves or somebody else." Not to preemptively attack them and strangle them to death. 

You said.  And I’ll quote.    “He did not threaten anyone”

now your saying his words only made them feel threatened.   Even though he did in fact say he was going to kill people….. and he was going to jail today.  
 

do your goal posts have an anchor in the ground or do they float around like a boat in the open sea?

[Tripnsweep]

3 hours ago, Caveira said:

You said.  And I’ll quote.    “He did not threaten anyone”

now your saying his words only made them feel threatened.   Even though he did in fact say he was going to kill people….. and he was going to jail today.  
 

do your goal posts have an anchor in the ground or do they float around like a boat in the open sea?

There is a difference between threatening somebody and saying things that could possibly be threatening. 

If he had gotten in somebody's face and said he was going to cause them harm, that is a threat and in that case if somebody did do something to him, then that's justified since if somebody does that, you would have a very reasonable fear of bodily harm. 

It doesn't sound like he did that. He definitely was saying things that might make you feel uncomfortable, and maybe were unnerving, but he didn't directly threaten anyone. He was unarmed, didn't brandish or intimate he had a weapon, so providing that he was intending to hurt somebody is kind of difficult to do. He obviously had mental health issues, but he wasn't doing anything besides loudly shouting things that might make people feel uncomfortable. 

[Tripnsweep]

4 hours ago, jross said:

Apparently there was "something" about this trip that scared two passengers in a way they had never been scared before on a subway after 6 and 30 years.  Beyond the "satanic grumbling" and "trash throwing," perhaps it was the lunging and declaration that "somebody is going to die today" and that he is "headed to rikers."

I've heard people say things like that on public transportation. I never felt the need to strangle them to death. 

[Offthemat]

55 minutes ago, Tripnsweep said:

There is a difference between threatening somebody and saying things that could possibly be threatening. 

If he had gotten in somebody's face and said he was going to cause them harm, that is a threat and in that case if somebody did do something to him, then that's justified since if somebody does that, you would have a very reasonable fear of bodily harm. 

It doesn't sound like he did that. He definitely was saying things that might make you feel uncomfortable, and maybe were unnerving, but he didn't directly threaten anyone. He was unarmed, didn't brandish or intimate he had a weapon, so providing that he was intending to hurt somebody is kind of difficult to do. He obviously had mental health issues, but he wasn't doing anything besides loudly shouting things that might make people feel uncomfortable. 

 

54 minutes ago, Tripnsweep said:

I've heard people say things like that on public transportation. I never felt the need to strangle them to death. 

There’s a jury in NYC that disagrees with you, entirely.  That makes it unanimous. 

[Caveira]

1 hour ago, Tripnsweep said:

I've heard people say things like that on public transportation. I never felt the need to strangle them to death. 

You weren’t on that train so you can’t judge his circumstances.  
 

your not on the jury so you can’t pass judgement. 
 

In one, if not the most liberal state in the USA…. He was found not guilty.  
 

don’t be a denier… just like elections.  Don’t be an election denier.   He was found not guilty.   
 

don’t riot…. When you don’t get your way.  
 

wasn’t someone on the jury wearing a mask.  We know that means they are likely to be liberal at this point.    

[Tripnsweep]

36 minutes ago, Caveira said:

You weren’t on that train so you can’t judge his circumstances.  
 

your not on the jury so you can’t pass judgement. 
 

In one, if not the most liberal state in the USA…. He was found not guilty.  
 

don’t be a denier… just like elections.  Don’t be an election denier.   He was found not guilty.   
 

don’t riot…. When you don’t get your way.  
 

wasn’t someone on the jury wearing a mask.  We know that means they are likely to be liberal at this point.    

I disagree with the decision. I don't presume to know why he was acquitted. But I think it was the wrong decision. 

[ionel]

1 hour ago, Tripnsweep said:

I disagree with the decision. I don't presume to know why he was acquitted. But I think it was the wrong decision. 

Did you sit thru the trial? 

[WrestlingRasta]

14 hours ago, Tripnsweep said:

I'm pretty sure that I know what violence is and isn't. I've seen plenty of people act this way and never felt threatened. 

Being that you were not there, your past experience and how you feel you would have reacted had you been there are completely irrelevant.  Especially when it comes to matter of law.  

[jross]

And it is irrelevant to the experience of actual passengers expressing fear of an immediate threat unlike anything they've experienced in years of subway use.

[Tripnsweep]

3 minutes ago, jross said:

And it is irrelevant to the experience of actual passengers expressing fear of an immediate threat unlike anything they've experienced in years of subway use.

I don't believe that and here is why.

I live in a much smaller city with a much lower population. I've used our public transportation a fair amount and have seen or heard people saying and doing much worse things than loudly yelling and having a psychotic episode. I've never once felt like I was in danger of needing to escalate to physical force to protect myself. 

Now in a city with 10x the population where most people rely on public transportation daily, I find it extremely hard to believe they hadn't seen somebody who was mentally ill, or on drugs having some kind of breakdown or episode in years of living there. 

[WrestlingRasta]

1 hour ago, Tripnsweep said:

I don't believe that and here is why.

I live in a much smaller city with a much lower population. I've used our public transportation a fair amount and have seen or heard people saying and doing much worse things than loudly yelling and having a psychotic episode. I've never once felt like I was in danger of needing to escalate to physical force to protect myself. 

Now in a city with 10x the population where most people rely on public transportation daily, I find it extremely hard to believe they hadn't seen somebody who was mentally ill, or on drugs having some kind of breakdown or episode in years of living there. 

Where in there did it say any of those witnesses claimed they had never seen anyone on drugs or had never seen anyone mentally ill before?   It didn't, it said in all the years of NYC subway riding, they have never felt that.   One who is using logical, unbiased thinking can come to an assumption that these people, having spent years riding NYC subways, have probably seen a person on drugs before.  But they'd never seen anyone behave like that (which.....is kind of the point)

Also, you seem to think that if you haven't experienced something, then just simply other people around the world have not as well, and it simply just can't be true.  You are certainly within your rights to have that opinion, but it is an extremely narrow one when it comes to the views of the billions of other people in the world and their experiences.  

[Tripnsweep]

19 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Where in there did it say any of those witnesses claimed they had never seen anyone on drugs or had never seen anyone mentally ill before?   It didn't, it said in all the years of NYC subway riding, they have never felt that.   One who is using logical, unbiased thinking can come to an assumption that these people, having spent years riding NYC subways, have probably seen a person on drugs before.  But they'd never seen anyone behave like that (which.....is kind of the point)

Also, you seem to think that if you haven't experienced something, then just simply other people around the world have not as well, and it simply just can't be true.  You are certainly within your rights to have that opinion, but it is an extremely narrow one when it comes to the views of the billions of other people in the world and their experiences.  

In my experience, it isn't uncommon if you use public transportation consistently to see that happen with some regularity. So I would guess that in a very large city like New York, where a lot of people rely on public transportation, seeing people acting crazy is much more likely. I don't think the threat of Bernie Goetz exactly deters crime or wrongdoing on the subway system either. 

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, Tripnsweep said:

In my experience, it isn't uncommon if you use public transportation consistently to see that happen with some regularity. So I would guess that in a very large city like New York, where a lot of people rely on public transportation, seeing people acting crazy is much more likely. I don't think the threat of Bernie Goetz exactly deters crime or wrongdoing on the subway system either. 

Were you there?  How do you know what happened and how it felt? 

[Caveira]

5 minutes ago, Tripnsweep said:

In my experience, it isn't uncommon if you use public transportation consistently to see that happen with some regularity. So I would guess that in a very large city like New York, where a lot of people rely on public transportation, seeing people acting crazy is much more likely. I don't think the threat of Bernie Goetz exactly deters crime or wrongdoing on the subway system either. 

You can’t see a difference between regular drugged out crazy and threatening to murder people and go to jail.  
 

I take public transport.  The L.  The metra.  Daily in Chicago.  I see drug addicts all day acting weird.  I’ve never in a confined space seen someone threaten to kill people and say I’m ready to go to jail today.   Or “lunge” at people when saying those things.   
 

if you don’t see a difference your not willing to open your eyes and see a difference.   I would bet that, In your heart you know that to be true…. But certainly won’t admit it.  
 

if a liberal jury in the most liberal city in America acquitted him you have to think hmmmmmmm.   It isn’t exactly like he got acquitted in Texas by a jury of 12 cowboys.   

[Tripnsweep]

55 minutes ago, Caveira said:

You can’t see a difference between regular drugged out crazy and threatening to murder people and go to jail.  
 

I take public transport.  The L.  The metra.  Daily in Chicago.  I see drug addicts all day acting weird.  I’ve never in a confined space seen someone threaten to kill people and say I’m ready to go to jail today.   Or “lunge” at people when saying those things.   
 

if you don’t see a difference your not willing to open your eyes and see a difference.   I would bet that, In your heart you know that to be true…. But certainly won’t admit it.  
 

if a liberal jury in the most liberal city in America acquitted him you have to think hmmmmmmm.   It isn’t exactly like he got acquitted in Texas by a jury of 12 cowboys.   

Did he say he was going to kill anyone? Did he tell somebody he was going to kill them? 

[mspart]

15 hours ago, Tripnsweep said:

I've heard people say things like that on public transportation. I never felt the need to strangle them to death. 

Neither did Penny.  

mspart

[mspart]

3 hours ago, Tripnsweep said:

I don't believe that and here is why.

I live in a much smaller city with a much lower population. I've used our public transportation a fair amount and have seen or heard people saying and doing much worse things than loudly yelling and having a psychotic episode. I've never once felt like I was in danger of needing to escalate to physical force to protect myself. 

Now in a city with 10x the population where most people rely on public transportation daily, I find it extremely hard to believe they hadn't seen somebody who was mentally ill, or on drugs having some kind of breakdown or episode in years of living there. 

These passengers you speak of testified in the trial to the things you find it extremely hard to believe.  

mspart

[ionel]

12 minutes ago, Tripnsweep said:

Did he say he was going to kill anyone? Did he tell somebody he was going to kill them? 

Betting if you were on the jury you would have been told the answer to that question. 

[mspart]

19 minutes ago, Tripnsweep said:

Did he say he was going to kill anyone? Did he tell somebody he was going to kill them? 

He said someone was going to die to day and he didn't care if he went back to Rikers.   There's an implied threat there.   Whether you want to see it or not.   People were scared, they testified to that, and regardless of your experience and expectations, they were afraid for their safety with this guy.  

mspart

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

23 minutes ago, mspart said:

These passengers you speak of testified in the trial to the things you find it extremely hard to believe.  

mspart

Under oath and penalty of perjury